WindLight Skies - They PAID For This?

LL's rose colored glasses and color perception

by Inigo Chamerberlin

So, the WindLight First Look arrives, with the usual breathless Torley Linden intro. And of course, the now standard Linden chant of 'Jir AH! - Jir AH! - Jir AH!'. But to the point - WindLight. Linden Lab PAID for this? In fact they were so impressed they bought the company?

I've rarely seen more unrealistic, garish effects - something I suppose I should have expected given Torley's involvement.

‘Funky Funky’ preset - who could have created this bizarre aberration?

The ‘midday 3’ preset - Midday? Where? In hell possibly?

How about ‘barcelona’? just what Second Life needed to make it more lifelike! Smog!

IF it came with some decent realistic presets (because most users will use presets).
IF it came with clouds that drifted realistically instead of hurtling across the sky at ludicrous velocity.
IF the controls weren't so touchy.
IF it were possible to punch numbers into it instead of relying on those twitchy imprecise sliders.
IF it had an ‘OFF’ button – because even ‘Default’ bears no resemblance to ’normal’ second life!
AND, most importantly,
IF it were a global effect on my estate, rather than a 'one of, client based effect' -
then I might be slightly interested.

As it stands, it's nothing more than a silly set of gimmicky 'effects' that will do little but damage commerce in SL. Why? Well, run around with this junk enabled and nothing looks 'right' any more. Skin shading, clothes colours, reflectivity, transparency, etc, etc - all visuals go to hell.

Here’s what Second Life as we know it looks like – in case you’d forgotten

This ghastly mess is WindLife default preset.

SO that default preset is the ‘best’ WindLight can do? Though, to be honest it’s possible to improve this somewhat to something more like the ‘real’ Second Life. The question is, why can’t WindLife do better ‘out of the box’, as the default preset?

Until now, everything in SL has been created in a relatively standardised lighting environment. But with WindLight, that all counts for nothing! Countless hours of careful work by residents, wasted - and Estate owners can't even lock the system so that some measure of reality prevails on their property!

This is a really, really bad move on Linden Lab's part. Another 'shiny' gimmick no-one asked for that's going to damage the Second Life experience rather than improve it. They just don't learn.

WindLight should not be released under any circumstances until it's possible for Estate owners to override its use and impose sane, sensible lighting and other effects on their property - or disable its use entirely on their estates. Otherwise, given the visual disaster WindLight represents, many estate owners are going to see sales tumble as visitors fail to buy well made products - that now look like rubbish.

Linden Lab should bear in mind that the vast majority of residents aren't that keen on a Torley'oid world of oversaturated hyper bright colour and disco-like lighting. What Linden Lab should be aiming for here is realistic effects and allowing Estate owners full control - or at the very least, the option of an Estate-wide 'disable WindLight' function.

As an aside - it's noticeable that feedback by any method than the wretched JIRA is discouraged – to the point of letting the blog close at 100 and pointedly throughout the post referring people to JIRA. This is as good as, to me and many others, as saying, ‘we aren’t interested in your feedback’. When are Linden Lab going to realize this? To quote from the manufacturer’s web site:

‘JIRA is a bug tracking, issue tracking, and project management application developed to make this process easier for your team.’

So, what part of that did Linden Lab fail to understand?

It says nothing about its unparalleled superiority for handling customer feedback. Because there is nothing to say on that subject. The manufacturers realize it’s useless for that. So why do Linden Lab persist in attempting to use it for that purpose?

The interface, as Linden Lab have customized it, is clunky, geekoid, difficult to navigate, unintuitive and incomprehensible. The words ‘user’ and ‘friendly’ were very obviously alien to whoever was responsible for setting this thing up – but still Linden Lab, and Torley in particular, seem obsessed with ramming it down our throats. Why?

Comments

[Aetuneo Novi]

Remember, the first look viewer is just that - a first look. A beta version (or, since I use the linux alpha version, not even that). It will probably look a lot better once they finish it.

You can rant about releasing badly made software into the wild once it has to be used by everyone; until then, it is completely optional and you have only yourself to blame for using it.

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm so glad you're not the only one knocking WindLight, because otherwise you feel as if you are a total grinch.

I was aghast when I saw that awful sun they put up now, which we don't have the option to undo to put back "the real sun" we're used to in RL; I protested directly to Philip and told him to put the damn sun back. He didn't see what was wrong with it. I later realized it was put in to work with this weather stuff, which is indeed ghastly.

The lighting effects in SL have steadily worsened in the time I've been in SL. I have old pictures I used to use in my real estate ads and I'm stunned sometimes at the nice subtle but still brilliant blues and greens and reds and oranges of sunlight -- and what I see then a year later, and now.

A synthetic world has to look synthetic. That means in fact it does have to have a bit of cartoon and Impressionism deliberately built into it. The textures and objects that look their worst in this world are those people port directly from real life with no modification to "fit the world". We all know how jarring it is to see somebody's badly-made VR screen with RL trees next to Linden trees that *do* fit the world.

In making the world look more realistic, they've made it look far worse -- and really fake.

[Reality]

Funny, I seem to recall this being in test stages, as in it is not yet finish.

also funny - I seem to recall (after having looked for all of about two seconds) the ability to set the effect to follow the progress of the estate's sun settings.

Yes, it needs work.

It does not need users running off half baked and forgetting the very nature of the First Look Client: an in world, main grid test of a new feature.

In the future you might want to try to remember that little tidbit before running your fingers off.

Oh - a similar sight is generated by a shareware Terrain Generation program called Terragen. The effect at certain settings is identical to the one you see in the default preset.

You might want to try opening the day cycle editor and setting it to use the estate cycle, then wait a while to watch the effects.

So long as the sun is not at certain angles - every thing looks fine.

Not that I'd expect someone as quick to bitch about something LL has done as you are to actually try that however.

In closing Inigo: How many people have asked for a more realistic environment? Not many, but enough for LL to have done this. Hmm, clouds look real - so long as you don't use anything other than the default setting, they move in a realistic manner. Lighting from the sun? realistic at most angles.

What am I saying to you? Don't bitch about something until you've explored every aspect of it, which apparently, you haven't.

[Reality]

..... and to Prokofy actually attempting to treat second Life as what it really is, a place where she does not live I am flabbergasted.

[Lordfly Digeridoo]

Looks great to me.

[Cocoanut Koala]

Jira - obvious to me from the minute they put it in. They're not interested in aggregating the problems of the users, in terms of - for instance - suddenly getting a thousand bug reports on something. Or even in what, say, builders who build all the time might have a pretty intimate knowledge of.

They put in Jira PRECISELY to discourage anyone not of the techiest, geekiest mindset. (They only want to play with their own kind.)

I decided they can just do without my feedback, unless something comes up that is totally debilitating.

And then it will be awful, because I will try to put something in Jira and get yelled at by everyone for saying it wrong or putting it in the wrong place.

I still remember Blue Linden (who I like) telling me that my bug report to him wasn't "exactly a traditional bug report." Well, hey, that's because I don't work for them, or for anybody, fixing bugs! I thought that was their job!

In any case, they have successfully gotten rid of 95% of the bug reports with this nighmare called JIRA, which was their entire goal.

I bet love notes were passed around over it. I just wish the Lindens would learn K.I.S.S. - "Keep it simple, stupid." The more unnecessarily complicated a thing is, the more they love it, it seems.

And when something isn't working well - ANYTHING - they always have complete faith that a more complicated system will be just the ticket.

coco

[Kahni Poitier]

I love the WindLight stuff.

Now if I'd quit crashing when I try to edit land....

BUT! I KNOW that this is TEST SOFTWARE, and use it as such.

Now if they'd just build the FirstLook building guidelines into the regular client (the colored lines that intersect objects. I LOVE those)

And dangit! Fix the stupid screenshots. I do NOT take 512z512 square pictures. Even when I set it to other resolutions and settings, I get 512z512 square pictures.

Meh....

[Lewis Nerd]

It works fine at home but not on my work PC - something to do with the graphics card. I think it's rather cool actually, and all you need to do is tweak it a bit.

In other words, spend a little time experimenting.

As you know, I'm no LL fanboi... but when it is working properly, I think windlight will be a great addition. I just hope it doesn't break loads of other things, like updates usually do.

Lewis

[Seb]

Show the currentyl running SL to anyone with an actual understanding of lightning, and you'll hear that it looks hideous. Show this, and they say it's a step forward.

So were does the herald stand? Let's looks at your layout...

THIS..

IS...

BETA!!!

[Nicholaz Beresford]

>> A synthetic world has to look synthetic. That means in fact it does have to have a bit of cartoon and Impressionism deliberately built into it. The textures and objects that look their worst in this world are those people port directly from real life with no modification to "fit the world". We all know how jarring it is to see somebody's badly-made VR screen with RL trees next to Linden trees that *do* fit the world.

In making the world look more realistic, they've made it look far worse -- and really fake. <<

That's what I first thought when I saw the videos and pictures on the blog about Windlight. Too realistic ... like those skins with photos tacked on them, they stick out as if they don't belong there. And the average 'cartoonish' building will just look bad against this sky, no matter what you do, because the sky is bigger.

[Nicholaz Beresford]

Besides, re JIRA.

Feedback is on the blog, and I've just read through it ... I doubt there will be anything new from post 101-200 that has not been said the same way 10fold in the first 100. And JIRA is a bug tracker, Torley clearly says so, where do they say that you should use it for feedback?

[Simondo Nebestanka]

Holy crap Inigo! Umm.. wow.. I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

I am looking for traces of "just joking" but see none.. do you really think this new feature is *not* an improvement? I am a little speechless.

..umm..

Okay power of speech regained. Perhaps the controls are a bit challenging.. but it's version one of a First Look viewer (beta squared I guess). Imagine for a second that when LL was looking at how much control to give users over avatar appearance adjustments, someone decided "no-one will go for all these sliders, there are too many options!".. I'm certainly glad all those options are there. Likewise, most the things you've mentioned about WindLight are easily (even in this first release) changeable. Without too much effort you can slow down the clouds, change the sun and lighting, and get everything looking pretty much like the regular viewer, if that's what is desired. In fact something like the regular viewer is probably what I would choose most of the time, but I'm *very* happy to have all those other options.

When the planned future releases give power to the estate owner to decide the best lighting for their sim.. well uh.. won't that be quite cool? To say the least? And presets will be transferrable like other Inventory items as I understand from the LL blog posts by Torley.

From my point of view this platform *must* continually change and try new things out, and it makes perfect sense to me that attempting to enrich the visual environment would be a desirable goal for LL. My first go of this new viewer put a big old smile on my face and forced me to decide a big step towards that goal has been made.

So yeah.. to each his own, and that's fine.. but this is all very beautiful to my eyes.

Peace

[my big penis]

IT'S SHOOP'D.
I CAN TELL FROM THE LAZER AND FROM SHOOPING QUITE A FEW WOOPS IN MY TIME.

[yuck]

gross

[Maximilan Goldflake]

I'm not as concerned about looks. I turn most things off in the debug menu anyway. How about performance?

[yuck]

gross

[Signore Iredell]

It looks much better than before for me, it's stable on my linux system (I'm NOT crashing), its performance impact on my 3-old computer isn't noticeable. This step is not even complete right now but I'd call it a nice improvement.

[Ophelie Ennui]

I think the sky looks far too realistic against the second life landscape. I don't hate it, but it needs a lot tweaking and softening. I don't like the way it seems to tint everything around you, trees don't look green anymore, prims are discolored. It's too much the way it is now. Hopefully they'll tone it down a bit when it's released because it's quite garish now.

[JazzHands DownPants]

Well, it *is* kind of disconcerting to think that (in this beta stage) nobody else is seeing what you are. Creating a consistently good-looking build is kind of difficult. An object might look brilliant when you buy it, but take it home to a different WindLight setting and it could look awful.

But from an SL photographer's perspective, it's a great tool.

As far as performance, it seems to be much less laggy than the usual sky. So that's a good thing.

I'm hoping to see many improvements to it, and hope LL keeps us abreast of how they plan to implement it when it is finally in the official release.

What I would *REALLY* like to see is - while you're sitting there reading this, do "jazz hands" for me because I said "breast". Go ahead, it feels good!

(haha - just kidding, you look silly)

[csven]

"..... and to Prokofy actually attempting to treat second Life as what it really is, a place where she does not live I am flabbergasted."

Why? By her own admission she saw real life child porn in Second Life and just somehow "forgot"; took her screenshots of the scene but didn't care enough to contact real authorities. Apparently she thought the images, which *she* claimed were imported real life photographs, somehow became more fake in Second Life and didn't require her to *do* anything. And that was last summer... long before this new rendering tech.

Guess those images would look even less real now, huh?

[Vint]

Now if I'd quit crashing when I try to edit land.... => I second that.

Anyway, after sliding and sliding and sliding and more sliding, I succeeded at getting a sort of normal view. (I tweaked the 'pirate' setting until I liked it.)

Besides for the still-so-wrong shading and all the points mentioned above, I really like it. ;) It has some great potential but an 'inforce on whole sim' doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Depending on your graphics card you see things different, so that would really fuck up things for some users. An ability to share fixed settings (as we share Landmarks) would be nice, though.

btw. Did anybody notice we have now more options as it comes to our sky then we have in the 'graphics' and 'advanced graphics' settings tabs in preferences?

[Julia Hathor]

My initial reactions to Windlight mirrored Inigo's. Realistic? Hardly, with the garish orange light and pudding brown colors during the darker hours. Yes it can be fiddled with in the controls, but most people won't do it or won'd have a clue how to do it. I find that whoever set the presets and default didn't even know how to do it. It does effect everything I build and I can see people sending me IM's already on how what they bought doesn't look the same when they get it home. Of course this is Beta, and I sincerely hope that the default & presets will be improved, the controls refined, and more controls enabled for estate owners to lock in a sky and weather system. If this is done right, it could be an improvement- as it stands now it is far from that.

As so whether we should complain or not while it is in BETA- Of course! If everyone says the emperor's new clothes are so rich & beautiful, will the needed changes be made?

[Ghoti]

Windlight looks great to me! It is still in FirstLook TESTING phase and it will only improve from here. When it has been fully integrated, this will add a great deal of realism to the atmosphere/weather system.

-Ghoti

[Nacon]

Inigo Chamerberlin, you're an idiot for a reason.

They brought Windlight because it allows easier custom setting for Content Creators to play with. ...All those setting you just checked out are pre-setting as a example. ....you know you can make it even better, right?

(Of course, you're an idiot, guess you won't able to.)

"If everyone says the emperor's new clothes are so rich & beautiful, will the needed changes be made?"
He'd need a raincoat pretty soon. ;)

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Interesting - I wonder how many of you have properly calibrated monitors?
Can't you, those you you who are saying 'it looks fine', SEE the difference between the (completely untouched or manipulated) screenshot taken in the current 'release' version of Second Life, and the (likewise, untouched' screenshot from the FirstLook WindLife 'default' preset?
Doesn't it strike you as worrying that the default is so different from the current version? That the contrast, brightness, saturation, colour balance and gamma are all VERY different and far less realistic?

Surely even the FirstLook version of WindLife ought to have a baseline closer to the 'real' Second life we are used to - and all content has been created under?

And yes, I do realise it's pre-release. But it being pre-released with such a ghastly range of presets is very worrying - especially the 'default' preset. It looks very much as if creating those presets, rather than being entrusted to a competent graphics professional, has been hijacked by a colour crazed lunatic with absolutely no idea what they are doing and a major taste bypass.

The worry is that these presets (especially the awful 'default' preset) will become legacy items - start as you mean to go on...

If those presets remain in place then Second life is going to wind up being perceived by it's residents as a garish mess. With, I'm quite sure, terrible effects on both the quality of subsequently created content and sales of existing content.

This is one case where everyone, especially the content creators, really do need to draw a line.

Prok - some good news anyway, it is now possible to make that vile sun slightly more bearable. Just clear the ridiculously mobile cloud away (you can put it back later) and if you reduce both sun sliders very close to minimum (the sliders are so coarse it's unbelievable) you get a half sensible sun. Pure white of course, obviously no one told the person responsible for the settings that the colour temperature of the sun is NOT pure white!
Have a go and see what you think. You'll have to live with it, you know how slim the chances are of this being dropped. So you might as well take advantage of what plus points there are...

Vint - yes, export and inworld transfer of settings would be very nice. That is another way in which people could ensure that we are all 'singing from the same songbook' so to speak.
However, I still maintain that Estate owners should have the ability to override client settings so that visitors see what the Estate owner intended.
I've spent a lot of time and money getting my island to look the way I want, and judging from visitor's reactions, I've made a better job of it than many of the 'default texture, billiard table rectangle' brigade.
I want visitors to see MY vision of my island, not whatever ghastly preset they have chosen from Linden Lab's tasteless and amateurish attempts.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Nacon - quiet!

When I need shit - I'll squeeze your head...

[Tenshi Vielle]

Oh, don't to that Inigo, that just makes a mess. Best let things lie.

Anyway, I don't know... I find some of the presets gross, but I actually like how they re-did the default viewing. Looks more like the "realistic" games I'm used to playing. Less washed out, more vivid. However, let's remember here, a game is a game.

[otakup0pe Neumann]

Umm. Beta ? Not only that, but the first released beta ? Now don't get me started on the full-bright with renderglow enabled.

[JimBean]

CHANGE IS BAD! CHANGE IS BAD!

THE SKY IS FALLING!

THE LINDENZ STOLE THE WATER AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!1!!!

[Lewis Nerd]

"It looks very much as if creating those presets, rather than being entrusted to a competent graphics professional, has been hijacked by a colour crazed lunatic with absolutely no idea what they are doing and a major taste bypass."

Torley?

Lewis

[Nate Randall]

Granted I have not used the First Look viewer, but, taking a look at the two shots, one current SL and one Windlight default...I have to say I honestly prefer the windlight effect. Crisp, strong and realistic.

[Hazim Gazov]

Oh hell no, they didn't pay for it. I paid for it, they're just being jackasses and taking credit again.

[Nicholaz Beresford]

>> I want visitors to see MY vision of my island, not whatever ghastly preset they have chosen from Linden Lab's tasteless and amateurish attempts. <<

Why don't you just ask enforce your contrast, gamma and brightness settings on their monitors also? Ahh, and ask for removal of the current client day/night overrides? And an option please to block users with uncalibrated monitors please!

Sorry, I can see that you want to give them the opportunity to see what you did there. But a land-owner "override user side light" and a user-side "accept land owners light" are two very different things.

[csven]

"I want visitors to see MY vision of my island"

Did Disney buy the Second Life Herald?

[shockwave yareach]

On one hand, my island and home will look much better. And this is only a Beta test? Not bad.

On the other hand, I have no lawn furniture to sit in and watch the lovely skies, as LL hasn't fixed the inventory issues yet.

Maybe I can sit on a cloud, if I can find one that doesn't have a Linden's head in it.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

'Torley?'

Whatever made you think THAT Lewis? :-)

[Cocoanut Koala]

When I build a house, I look at it in noon, sunset, sunrise, and region settings. And often. As you all know, this already does a number on color, and you have to make sure your colors are acceptable in all these conditions.

This new stuff sounds like - well, a person might as well give up.

I really don't think a world configured to look different to a million users in a million different ways is a very good idea, if that is what this will do.

There has to be a basic static reference point for all, else it is no longer a world, but a myriad individual visions and nightmares.

coco

[DaveOner]

If I wanted to read this much uninformed crying I'd go to the SL forums. Isn't this site supposed to report on anything legitimate? I guess this is further proof that you don't need to have any idea of journalism to set up a web site and call it news.

Pathetic!

[Ceeq Laborde]

You can't help but complain and whine about everything to do with SL Inigo. You should apply for a job at the British 'paper' The Sun. Perfect for you.

[Kahni Poitier]

Hehehe. +1 to Ceeg

[Reality]

Inigo - a good number of those telling you it looks fine are people that have actually used the First Look Client a bit more. Monitor settings? Please hold up yet another trivial bit hmm (calibrated for the optimum in picture quality, editing purposes)?

Now then, the 'default' preset is nothing more than the original viewer's setup re tuned to this new Wind Light engine - that much can be seen by even a blind man.

Again, try actually using the settings - like the default - with the estate's day cycle setup. You'll see what I mean.

As for your vision of your island? Considering how much a user could play around with certain effects, the differences in graphics hardware and any number of other variables .... You'd be better off personally buying each and every user the same sort of computer you have, calibrating it to your exact specifications and paying for whatever internet speed they would need to get the full effect without any lag.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Sorry 'Reality'. 'default' preset has the wrong gamma for starters, plus the colour balance is out quite noticeably.
Not being entirely brain dead I DO have a properly calibrated monitor and even if it weren't, all I have to do is swap viewers with the SL sun locked and the WindLight sun likewise. They reveal radically different renderings. My monitor setup would be irrelevant. WindLight's colourspace is based on very different settings to the current Second Life's.
LOOK at the screen shots for heaven's sake! They completely bypass both my GFX card and my monitor. And the difference is obvious.

But that's all beside the point. I don't like it. Like most content creators I've created both objects and environment to look their best in the 'standard' Second Life lighting.
This gimmick has the capacity to ruin that, especially in the hands of the unwary.
So, I want the option to disable it, or better still, override it.
I think there will be an increasing body of like minded opinion regarding this.

As for playing with it - I have, which is how come I know the sliders are way too coarse (try slowing cloud movement to see what I mean), the scales poorly chosen and lacking an essential feature - the ability to punch in numbers directly.

FirstLook it may be. But it does not bode well for the future, this needs a LOT more work, and this pre-release needed a lot more thought before being unleashed.

[Ordinal Malaprop]

Well, I think it looks terrific, personally. As long as the default is to run on the day cycle, with added options available for the machiniminists and the photographers and the curious, I will be very pleased.

[Ananda]

I agree with Ordinal - the default setting, while it may need a bit of tweaking, is a dramatic improvement over the current environment and lighting. What is far more worrying in the first implementation is the miniature size of the skydome - presets may be a lot easier to fix than that will be.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

FFS!
I just discovered, officially, that Torley is Product Manager for WindLight!

Well that blows any possible chance of it being developed properly I suppose. WHAT are Linden Lab THINKING of? I suspected the guy was involved from the disgusting and garish presets - now I know the full extent of his involvement...

Welcome to the Watermelon World of Second Life!

I really can't believe this. That a $25 million company would put something so core to the visual appearance of Second Life in the hands of... well, I'm not going to say it, because if I'm going to insult someone (purely by telling the truth) I much prefer doing it to their face - and with Torley living in Australia there's little chance of me ever getting that chance, more's the pity!

Suffice it to say that both Torley's manic behaviour, obsession with vivid contrasting colours, and the fact that his perceptions are NOT those of the majority of us would not make him a prime choice in any company that I can think of!

This certainly will have an effect on my future involvement in Second Life - because I really don't want to live my Second Life in Torley's head thanks very much.

Yazza - fucking - rama and goodnight!

[Hazim Gazov]

More features like this! Great! Next add realistic physics, then I want rope bindings like in gmod, then elastics, and then I want physical flexi-prims, and then I want flash in-game!

[Reality]

Sorry Inigo, please try again, try using actual reading comprehension (I said nothing about your monitor or about your settings, I said citing such a thing in one of your responses was trivial) and provide technical proof that the two are so vastly different, not a screen shot.

Playing with the sliders does not count much for actually using the client, at default, with the day cycle set to use the estate settings - try again.

Don't like the way it looks? Wait a while and see what happens instead of bitching and attempting to tell other people just how horrible it is.

Don't like who they chose as the head for the project? Too bad. Frankly, I'd rather have someone who overdoes things working on something like this ...

To sum it up: suck it up and wait like everyone else - THEN bitch about it. You already know Linden Lab is going to implement this.

[Simondo Nebestanka]

Inigo wasn't it obvious that all the official blog posts were by Torley?

Notwithstanding that the new viewer is easily adjustable to return close to the 'traditional' look, why wouldn't Torley be in charge of this? Take a peek at his Flickr pictures and witness his eye for detail and passion for all that is visually stunning, or visit his blog and bask in the huge amount of creative output he's responsible for, or watch his video tutorials to get a quick understanding of his impressive uses of the user interface and his ease of providing enthusiastic and appropriate instruction. I think he's a very good choice of human to manage this kind of project, with the perfect skills to show users how to achieve the most from it.

I wasn't aware Torley lives in Australia.. are you sure about this? 'Bugger me' if so. (No please don't.. it's just a figure of speech down here :)

You don't have to live your Second Life in Torley's head. The same as every single other viewer setting, just adjust it to suit yourself and Bob's your mother's brother.

Peace

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Simondo - Torley has made announcements about EVERYTHING! That doesn't make him Project Manager for EVERYTHING, or does it?

And if you are judging Torley by a few blog posts and pics you have a LOT to learn, trust me on this. Torley is either worryingly unstable, or a fake.
Anyone who can remember Torley Torgeson will know exactly what I'm talking about - the relentless campaign to insinuate himself with Linden Lab, the endless self-serving self promotion, the careful revelations, maybe not quite as clever in retrospect, designed to garner sympathy AND give him an 'edge'...

Bah! Let me echo Philip for once. 'Bring on the competition - where is it?'

Because I want out.

[Simondo Nebestanka]

Inigo, point taken re announcements. I guess I was trying to say I *wasn't* surprised that Torley might be managing this feature, any more than I was surprised that Steve Linden managed the previous FirstLook viewer - if my memory serves me correctly.

Sure I don't know Torley any more than I know you, but after following not a few but many blog posts, raised to the power of many many fellow resident recollections and character references, I am reasonably confident that Torley is neither unstable nor a fake. It's easy to make statements like this in the heat of the moment.. and I didn't know 'Torley Torgeson'.. but isn't Torley right up there with the best of those who have inspired and encouraged incredibly creative input into this vast world? If you don't warm to his style well that's fine, but don't deny credit where credit is due.

I can pursuade my better instincts to follow that you just don't like this FirstLook viewer, but I don't quite follow how that becomes a basis for a Torley-bashing exercise.

And sure.. bring on the competition.. but thus far, I can't see them nearby. Stuff like WindLight and sculpties just helps increase the lead over anything else I'm aware of that allows content creation on such a large scale the way SL does.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Not Torley bashing.

Just the simple fact that putting Torely in charge of something that will affect the visual output of Second Life for every Paying Customer (I don't greatly care about those who don't pay their way) makes about as much sense as putting a raving pyromaniac in charge of the Second Life Fire Department.

At this point I don't much care any more. I've seen some crap in three years here, this beats all though. If I'd realised who was in charge of the project I wouldn't have even bothered writing the original article - talk about pissing into the wind!

I hope you, and the rest of the fan club enjoy the outcome.

[Simondo Nebestanka]

Thanks Inigo, I follow what you are saying. Thanks for elaborating. No offence intended by my statements.

Cheers,
Simondo.

[Hazim Gazov]

Shut up, everyone likes Torley, this will obviously be cool.

[Gillian Waldman]

I don't understand what is so hard about understanding this is FIRST LOOK program. There are many weeks to go before it's released I suspect, and plenty of time for feedback/bug reporting. Jira is NOT hard to use and if you look at it, you can see plenty of the issues you're on about are already fixed for the next rev. Torley is not a developer so he's not making this stuff - he's championing it...and PS, most people are really excited about it. It's very buggy just now but I suspect will be amazingly beautiful when it's done.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Gillian, you'll be living with it - but if those presets are anything to go by, the only beauty will be in the eye of the beholder.

I have no problem with FirstLook as STEVE did it - feedback and bugs via the blog. It was easy, and it worked.

However, because JIRA (which is absolute crap) is Torley's hobby-horse, we can't do that way this time, but are being forced, by Toreley, to use the unfriendly, un-user-friendly, confusing and poorly conceived JIRA.

Well there are a lot of us who CAN'T (because we aren't super-geeks), or WON'T (because no one likes being coerced and bullied) use JIRA.

Now - will the Torely Fan Club please go away. If Torley wants to discuss my views he's perfectly welcome to try. In person. Not using glove puppets.

Thank you.

[StallionSeven]

Why is this moron Inigo Chamberlin still employed here?
Sweet Christ, if you don't have a story, invent one. Is that the Herald's motto?

Do us a favor and jerk off somewhere else Inigo.

[Nacon]

Inigo said "Nacon - quiet! When I need shit - I'll squeeze your head..."

Ok. Here's all the shit from other people in your own opinion.

"Why is this moron Inigo Chamberlin still employed here?"
"Don't bitch about something until you've explored every aspect of it, which apparently, you haven't."
"Looks great to me."
"Shut up, everyone likes Torley, this will obviously be cool."
"Inigo wasn't it obvious that all the official blog posts were by Torley?"
"You should apply for a job at the British 'paper' The Sun."
"Isn't this site supposed to report on anything legitimate? "
"In other words, spend a little time experimenting."

So why bother squeezing only my shit? People has spoken, you're still an idiot, Inigo.
(oh and you can shove Tenshi up in your ass while youre at it.)

[hrm]

Inigo- "Doesn't it strike you as worrying that the default is so different from the current version?"

This pretty much cuts to the point of the article. "It's different from what I'm used to so I don't like it." Well sorry, the current version looks pretty blah, imho. And the beta of what's coming already looks better. If you don't want to test an unfinished, buggy product that's not ready for release, don't download beta software. If you DO test it, and have suggestions on how it could be improved, submit them through the proper channels instead of whining your ass off in this article. At least that way someone might take your suggestions and impliment them, rather than seeing the article and thinking, "what a dick!" That's kinda the point of releasing test software.

Let's be honest- SL has a LONG way to go before it even catches up to games released as far as three years ago when it comes to looking "realistic," and the most realistic stuff in SL is usually user created, not supplied by LL. It's about time they bumped up the client-side stuff that they ARE responsible for.

And, believe it or not, there ARE urban sims that might actually like a preset with a little smog. Not every sim can be a demented moonscape littered with floating signs, shops, and other detritus lit by the kind of flat, boring super bright light that could only exist in a virtual world like most of the mainland, you know.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Ahhh. I see the colonials have risen from their beds :-)
It's great, you can literally set the clock by them...

Ok, well, sorry to disappoint some of you, but I AM working with WindLight. It's not fun with a flawed toolset, but it has to be done. Clearly the person who supplied the default settings hasn't bothered much.

Anyway, I have run into a difficulty here, so, I assume some of you, judging by your adverse comments about my supposedly 'not using WindLight' HAVE been using it - so, it follows that someone out there must know the answer to this problem?

I'm attempting to create a full day-span of presets (one where the sun moves realistically). In the process I have discovered that all Linden water in WindLight emits light! And I can't find a way of preventing this. It makes low light environments incredibly unconvincing. Anyone know a way of preventing this?

I've found a couple of other specific issues, relating to existing content of course, which will need attention, but this 'glowing radioactive water' thing is a real showstopper. All sensible solutions appreciated.

[Kahni Poitier]

I don't know how to fix it, Inigo, but don't let the nay-sayers get to you. I think WindLight is awesome, and I can't wait for it to become standard.

"What's this 3d crap? I designed all my stuff to be seen in 16-colors and 2d! You're ruining my entire vision! How DARE you!"

Adapt or die.

[Simondo Nebestanka]

When using the non-WindLight viewer, in the 'Graphics Detail' tab turning on 'Ripple Water' seems to give non-light-emitting water, not affected much by modifying the 'Nighttime Brightness' in the 'Adv. Graphics' tab. Turn off 'Ripple Water', and the water surface light radiation is lessened by decreasing the 'Nighttime Brightness'.

In the WindLight viewer, turning on 'Ripple Water' also gives non-light-emitting water, however turn it off and no matter what you do to 'Nighttime Brightness', you still get 'bright' water.

Does seem like a bug to me. If your graphics card can handle it, for now try turning on 'Ripple Water' and it may get rid of the glowing radioactive water.

Cheers

[Io Zeno]

"'What's this 3d crap? I designed all my stuff to be seen in 16-colors and 2d! You're ruining my entire vision! How DARE you!'

Adapt or die."

Hrm, how do you "adapt" to a 100 different presets, none of them seeing the same world or content in the same way?

And most of them pretty ugly to my eyes as well, stop gawking at the sky and look at the stuff on the ground around you, hardly an upgrade, more like a bad light show. Especially avatars, the most important content that people own.

I also *like* the idea that I am seeing the same world as those around me. No, not everyone is deep into "immersion" but everyone seeing the same thing is pretty integral to a shared experience, a virtual "world". I guess that is out the window too, and we are all on our own little acid trip or something, yay.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Simondo :

Thanks for that, but Ripple Water is my default... so it's not that

I think it's some function of the sun position in Lighting (even with sun lighting at minimum) and Atmosphere setting - but 20 possible settings to investigate, each with many permutations, finding the culprit isn't easy. I'm tinkering.

What is REALLY out of order is the way WindLight 'night' seems to prevent light prims (not fullbright prims - light EMITTING prims) working. I've also noted WindLight-only Alpha issues and messed up particles. And of course, reflection seems to be broken by WindLight too...

So much for not breaking existing content... The amount of stuff WindLight is capable of breaking, never mind the other objections to it, is downright scary.

[bubbles]

DUH? What part of 'first look' and 'doesn't represent final quality' do some here not understand? I'm especially disappointed with the Prokofy faction. I greatly appreciate LL allowing us to try out work in progress projects. Some people are never happy.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Hey Bubbles - Linden Lab BOUGHT the company that produced the technology. Well, 'acquired' was the precise term.

First of all it, was supposed to be a working product. One of the stated reasons for the purchase was that the Atmosphere/Cloud/Lighting functions were virtually 'bolt it on and go'. You know, no development required?

Now, if we all looked at it and said "Awesome, Cool, Oooooh, New Shiny" - do you really think Linden Lab would say - "Woah guys! It doesn't work that well, it's buggy, it has a nasty UI, it breaks a lot of existing content, will cause inworld visual perception issues, and it's just not ready to go"?

Or do you think it would just be released 'as is' while LL went back to their important stuff - like 'keeping us safe inworld' (threatening people for indulging in fantasies in a virtual world - ROFLMAO), or setting up 'age verification' systems with highly questionable companies?

Honestly now? :-)

Even the oddballs at Linden Lab have enough sense to realise that, as WindLight stands, it's far from satisfactory.
So, instead of spending money testing it (something you'd thought they'd have done BEFORE they bought it - I saw the pre-purchase product demonstration videos and they were far from impressive, in fact, pretty much what we have right now, minus the psychedelic presets though)they dump it on US to test-drive, saving money and doing THEIR job for them, in the guise of a First Look release.

But... BIG problem for the Linden Fan Boyz! Critical analysis of a Linden Lab product! OMG!!!

Well, we have to make it clear it's not good enough, because we'll have to live with the 'finished' product ('we', the bulk of the customers of Linden Lab - ordinary people).
They asked us to tell them what we thought, remember? That's the POINT of First Look. NOT uncritical acclaim of a flawed product which does no one any good.

If they can live with that, because it's what they wanted, YOU can live with it too!

[Michael Seraph]

I've been running the First Look for a couple of days. I keep it in default mode. The sunset is a bit too garish for me, but the sunrise is very nice. I like the night and especially like the look just after sunset. The sky at high altitudes (700m) looks good, unlike before. All in all, I like the product. LL says it plans to put in estate controls for estate owners and hopefully will simplify the end user ability to muck up the controls. That way most people will be seeing the same thing.

[Rhiculus Oh]

You're an idiot; those lighting schemes are far more impressive than anything the base SL / Havok engine have been able to provide to this point. Granted, Linden Labs is royally screwing the goat by throwing an immense amount of development time at stupid things like lighting when they should be focusing on issues that the population actually cares about. Release the grid source already LL, the hackers of the world will fix it far better than you'll ever be able to and we're sick and fucking tired of sims crashing when the forty-first avatar steps over the border.

[The Ted]

The path of evolution is layed upon the the voices of dissenters and theorists. It would be more then appropriate to observe the natural flow of things rather then chant doubts and personal views i would like to remind you of the static skyline before wind light however unrealistic it may be it still adds a new and interesting addition to an otherwise unwavering atmosphear

[Gando Thurston]

As a SL photographer, I'm digging WindLight. I've only just started to play with it though.

It would be really cool if the settings could be passed through the inventory. I'd like to see a message like: "Inigo Chamerberlin wants to give you a preset for WindLight - do you accept?". That way I could see what the estate owner had in mind for the sim I'm in -- and still be able to shut it off.

Passable WindLight settings would allow for others to decide what they want their default look to be like, and spread it around, leaving it out of LL's hands so they could get on with other business.

[Gillian Waldman]

Inigo - I just wanted to add there is a bug with certain drivers and ripple water...I did file a Jira issue so if you want to compare notes, you can find it here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-925

[Mark Busch]

I think it is a good improvement. You are so worried about the 'default' looking diffrent then the default as it is now? Didn't you notice that the 'default' we are having now is really ugly?
And why should everything be as 'realistic' as possible? If you want realism, don't play SecondLife but stay in your first life! As long as it looks interesting and good it's fine by me, and I think Windlight makes everything in SL look much more interesting and alive.

And who cares if the color and texture of your left shoe do not look exactly what it looked like when you bought it?! Like anyone cares or notices :P

Yes they bought Windlight because it's an impressive wheater and environment system. Why don't you try making something better yourself :) you act like it's something horrible, you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Oh and in your comparison, the picture "This ghastly mess is WindLife default preset" looks better in my opinion. Don't write articles that are purely based on your exaggerated PERSONAL opinion.

[Binders Off]

I just today came across this article, unfortunately months after it was posted. However, I must say I am pleased to find someone who has seen throught the Windlight marketing hype and pegged it right to the wall.

Windlight is one of the worst ideas LL has come up with in a long time. Has anyone taken the time to actually test this system and see what it does to existing builds. If you want an environment that turns your bright and shiney textures to stone and rubber, that makes your glass look like it's been fine-sanded and de-glossed, that makes your swords and cars look like they just went through an acid bath... Windlight is exactly what you're looking for!

So far every new thing that Linden Lab has brought us has had one added nice effect: they LAG THE SYSTEM TO DEATH. Flexi prims, as nice as they are, are SERIOUS lag factors. Sculpty prims, as interesting as they are, are MAJOR lag factors. Rather than taking steps to reduce lag and increase system performance, Linden Lab seems fool-bent on adding yet more lag to the system by bringing in new special effects to an already over-extended foundation.

One has to wonder about these people. It seems Linden Lab is made up of a group of highly intelligent visionaries totally unrestrained by any sense of realistic discernment. They continue to tax their system when it's already on the constant verge of major catastrophe, and they keep adding more and more things to tax the system even further.

The only thing I can really say to them at this point, is one great big, resounding, echoing DUH! GET A CLUE PEOPLE!

Windlight is an interesting idea that has proven impractical and messed up. We can live with the existing skies people. Work on the flipping LAG!

[archie lukas]

Damn the pretty skies

round the boobs off

lets get real problems sorted.
Lisa Simpson hair

hexagonal boobs
muscles with points

Concentrate on the avatar physics chaps!