Vox Lindeni

Francis Barraud, His Master's Voice.

By Prokofy Neva, Dept. of Linden Trees Falling in the Simulated Forest And No One Hearing Them

The Lindens' announcement that they're going to add voice to Second Life will likely be met with mixed responses.

In the typical upbeat LL fashion, the Blob tells us that "many" residents wanted to have voice, but in fact this isn't something we can determine accurately that "most" wanted. Those who truly need voice within SL tend to use Skype, Shoutcast servers, Ventrillo, etc. already. But having it Always On will pose problems for significant numbers.

First, the price tag. We knew when the Lindens said they were "grandfathering the island tiers for a year" that we should count the silverware. We just didn't think that it would mean they'd add on new features, and then say, oh, you can't have that new feature unless you pony up the new full freight now. So if you want your island voicified -- and the cybering masses may want this or come to feel as if they need this -- you'll have to increase their rent by 50 percent likely, or go out of business, because now you'll have $295 tier, not $195 tier per month. Mercifully, you may not have to make this radical choice; it seems that IMs between two people can go to voice without having to have the feature on the land where they're located.

Whenever I think of the voice issue, I think of Richard Bartle's marvelous essay, "Not Yet, You Fools!" an anti-voice piece about X-box, on gamegirl.advance. It's perfection. Voice breaks immersion. He's absolutely right. Here you are all slaying dragons and saving damsels from distress and all of a sudden, thunk, the damsel turns out to be a male trucker, the dragon is your Mom, and you're bashfully aware that you flat Midwestern accent doesn't have that Harry Potter plumminess that you imagine your game in, while dashing around a pre-Enlightenment landscape.

The eggheads at Terra Nova talked about this as "Mike Fright", and while recognizing that voicing breaks the magic circle, they were all for the team-speak of Team Speak because, well, they're gamerz over there and they got used to X-box.

But you know, we're not doing NASA flight simulation or organizing raids in WoW as complex as air-traffic controlling a hive of bees through a sieve. We're just playing Second Life.

We all know who "needs" voice. The Lindens do, first of all. They need it because they want to be like There, WoW, X-Box, and whatever else is out there that either has voice right in the client or uses voice services more routinely than Second Life. They also want to sound like they are really Business-Ready and Business-Savvy and nothing says "Business" like "A Conference Call". But when Second Life turns out to be nothing more than a conference call, will it be as cool?

And we all know how doesn't need voice -- the deaf, the transgendered, the shy, the insecure, the old, the foreign. That is, all the people who have Second Lives unlike their first lives -- and we're about to find out just how many of us there are like that.

But there will be a lot more conundrums and inconveniences coming along with this voice thing that we haven't all worked through.

Let's take the live music. The beauty of a Frogg Marlowe and Jaycatt Nino concert, of course, is that they talk live to you while playing live music. You're on the keyboard, and Jaycatt's on the keyboard, but they're different keyboards.

You can't interrupt their singing and playing with your own ridiculous voicing inappropriately while they are trying to play. Or...you can, of course, because they may opt to turn ambient world noise off and just play, but then the rest of the venue's patrons are stuck with you if you voice, just as they are stuck with your clattering keys because you didn't use the /Harvard Hush backslash, or stuck with your "Ohhh yaaaeah" dumbass noiseclips.

Just like it can be kind of a jarring and unsettling experience flying over the world and listening to 101 god-awful mass-taste horrid radio stations and blasting music of all sorts, so the cacophany of voices may be such a din that you'll turn it off.

We might see the emergence of type-only sims or communities or events. "She's a typist," may come to be a disparagement in some circles, impugning her RL female gender status, or it may become the hallmark of refinement and intelligence -- we shall see!

And the big wildcard is performance, lag, visibility or audibility (is that a word?). The Lindens hint at possible trouble by saying you might notice a bit of reduction in speed. That's their way of admitting that adding voice may be as big a show-stopper for some people's systems as adding audio and video for movies and music has been. If even they admit there might be trouble -- look out! We'll see. Let's hope they'll be truthful about this.

I, for one, am personally unhappy about the move to voice, for obvious reasons. When I came to Second Life, as when I came to the Sims Online, I opted to chose an avatar of the opposite gender because I can. That's all the reason you need. "The community" as the slathering jackals on various vicious forums describe themselves, have opted to hack and slash at this, first unlawfully outing my RL gender on the official forums, with the Lindens belatedly awarding only mild wrist-slaps, then continually pilloring me and harassing me endlessly for this choice, trying to use it as a lever to prevent my dissent or humiliate me in some way. It's an astounding double standard, as male-to-female transgendered like Torley get nothing like that sort of harassment. However, it's a choice I continue to defend, and refuse to yield on, though everything that Second Life has been about for me, whether forums or SLCC or packs of griefing asstards, has tried to erode this. Being forced to use a voice in a virtual world, something not of my choice, against my will -- because people in business will all be forced to do this -- feels like the ultimate blow. It won't be -- but you do get tired of this crap after awhile.

It's a sad day when a virtual world, which is supposed to be special, which is supposed to have a magic circle even if it isn't a game, which is supposed to be about freedom and creativity, makes you do something against your will. There will be many, many others more anonymous than me who will keep typing and therefore endlessly invite suspicion and speculation.

Most of all, what I dislike about this is that it is not truly Vox Populi, the voice of the people. Nobody clamoured for it. It's a Linden thing. It's not *necessary*. There are 1000 issues that should be solved before this -- like not taking inworld accounts history out of the viewer, like improving FPS and grey squares and being able to teleport. Are they counting on voice to tide them over the worsening performance issues, so that we will be talking to each other because the teleporter won't be working much of the time?!

Check out the Features Voting Tool and it tells the story about "Voice" in Second Life.

There are five proposals having to do with the word "voice".

o Prop 2839 has a mere 80 votes from a tiny number of 27 people supporting voice chat in Second Life.
o Prop 2616 calls for voice adjustment meaning the distance at which your typing is "heard" in the existing SL system.
o Prop 2604 talks about people who "have no voice" who are against propositions becuse there is no "no" vote (I have a proposition on this subject, too, as a half dozen others do -- one of the deep flaws of the voter system)
o Prop 2186 also has 74 for voice chat from a mere 25 voters because they wish to know "who is an adult and who is a kid". Hey, watch the grid empty out? And the ageplayers evaporate? That would be nice.
o Prop 2135 is a repeat asking for "hearing back" on a voice proposition, with 15 votes.
o Prop 2111 is a proposal again referring to the lack of voice meaning the lack of a "no" vote, this time with 18 votes from 13 voters.

Telling, eh? And in predictable fashion, the Lindens are defaulting the whole mainland to voice, with an opt-out, just like they defaulted to push, though in fact we may find that the voiced may be a distinct minority. In any event, only 52 people happened to vote for this as far as we know -- the rest clearly have other priorities -- as the fact that three out of the six "voice" proposals illustrate. They didn't have to do with RL voice audibility, but having the real voice we need to have in Second Life -- a real say in what features are developed and put in the client.

Comments

[Kerian Bunin]

I have a feeling this may take on limited use in some circles, but I don't foresee it replacing good old chat anytime soon. I'm interested to see what happens either way. Its rather perturbing though that they spend time on adding things people weren't really asking for, instead of fixing long running problems.

[nimrod yaffle]

Prok, you're such a hypocrite. Were you not the one harassing Weedy about thinking she was a man? She isn't, but that's like the whole pot, kettle, black, thing.

[Spankubux]

OMG! Change is bad. BAD BAD BAD.

No never change. Never Ever Never Ever.

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, I didn't harass Weedy about "thinking she was a man". Weedy made up a fake story about having a husband, who supposedly used her account sometimes, and a huge concocted Internet histrionics story about being thrown from a horse, contracting hanta virus, and being on the ER drop with hubby hovering solicitously -- later, the story evaporated, when no record of this rare disease occuring could be found in the news from the region where she lives or on the Canadian Ministry of Health's website -- and she added another story about "an intern" getting hold of her account -- the usual histrionic trajectory.

So that had *nothing* to do with her being transgendered, and had everything to do with her making up a story to draw attention and sympathy.

Oh, change is good. And change is what we should have in Second Life. We need to change the Voting Features Tool so we can really vote on features and policies and be able to vote "no" and have it stick. Yes, I'm all for change.

[marilyn murphy]

ahh well, those who want to use it will and those who dont wont and life goes on. i think, truly, the real issue here is that they are working on this when they should be fixin whats broke.

[Dew Sands]

What I want to know is, if voice becomes popular, will there be a way for those of us without speakers or headphones to see that someone is talking to us? Or will I end up effectively deaf in SL?

[Misty McConachie]

It is an unfortunate fact that over time those that opt out of voice will be the object of suspicion and, potentially, discrimination.

There is a solution of sorts available for the shy, insecure and transgendered at least - voice masking. This is currently used with Xbox live and is quite popular, I believe.

I hope that LL, or a third party, makes that available.

Personally I'm open minded about the addition of voice. I could see myself using it on occasion. But I like the capacity to revise what I'm about to say that written chat affords. How often do you type something, only to tinker with it a bit on quick reflection?

Also, whilst voice is obviously ideal for use in lectures in SL I'm concerned by the impact this will have on group discussions. Without the visual queues of real life it's going to be quite difficult to hold a discussion with 20-30 people if voice is enabled. I can imagine people chattering over the top each other and it all ending up completely inaudible! Such events are likely to remain text only for some time to come, I suspect.

[Inigo]

Wouldn't it be sad if LL added voice - and no one spoke? :-)

Interesting timing on the announcement too. A cynic might suggest it's an attempt to deflect attention from the growing row about the disabling of the client Transaction Record...

That aside, given the current state of Second Life - buggy, unstable and unable to service the required load without crippling features left right and centre - I feel that LL wasting resources, both system and human, on adding a new (shiny) feature is completely unacceptable, as I'm sure most residents will if they think it through.
Still, when have LL ever listened to residents views, other than select focus groups of dedicated fans?

All that aside. We are going to get it, like it or not. So - the implications?

Well, the first thing is that you can exchange information via speech at at least 10 times the rate you can via text. And frankly that would be nice. There comes a time when you really do need to communicate and voice is that much better for the job.

Non-English speakers. I have Non-English speaking friends, close friends, and I don't speak their languages. Well, I guess with voice they'll be learning to speak English at least as well as they write it? There again, maybe I'll start learning another language? Whatever, we'll adapt I think.

The 'is she/he, or isn't she/he?' issue. I think that depends very much on the individuals concerned, doesn't it? people are flexible and will reach their own accommodations - or not.
It's like Prok. Intellectually you KNOW you are speaking to a woman in text.
Will it jar to hear Prok's 'real' voice inworld? For me I don't think so, I've grown used to Prok's 'true' gender since the outing incident.
Will it jar to hear a stranger talking with a trans-gender voice? Maybe. But then again, so will hearing that gorgeous blonde talking in an old ladies voice, or a 'Minny Mouse' voice, then there'll be the musclebound hulk talking in a reedy nasal drone... Not a huge difference if you stop and think about it.
One thing voice WILL do is strip away a lot of illusion in Second Life, which may not be a sensible thing for LL to have done, still, when has LL ever worried about sensible?

Indeed, just who IS Linden Lab these days? Joshua Linden states in the blog announcement that 'voice has always been part of the long-term plan for the Grid'.... ????

REALLY Josh? Well *I* seem to recall Philip - you remember HIM surely - saying that there were no plans for voice and that he didn't see it as desirable at a Town Hall. Admittedly some time ago, but he DID say that. Which is NOT 'always been part of the long-term plan' to my understanding...

So, some faction, other than Philip Rosedale, within Linden Lab, has managed to push their adgenda forward despite Philip not being in favour. I'd say it was a hopeful sign, if it weren't for the strong likelyhood of it being a prominent ex-employee of There...

[janeforyou Barbara]

I am shure many want RL Voice in SL-- but as i se it it will be 2 classes...them with Voice and them vithout voicechat.I been in chats for 7 yares.. Vioce and non voicechats.
In Cybertown-Oddesey.org-Jewels Of Indra and blaxxun world we use "computervoce" This worlds are web based 3D.At My sim in SLwe use only live Djs and only girls and use stream.But am not shure if the "users" in my sim or in other sims realy want to use this "voice option" If so i will need a c5 sim.I also se a other problem, how many "woman" nicks are there in SL? 70% ? How many of this are RL woman? 30% ? This is wat i herd and also more or less wat i seen over the last yare in SL-And will there be so that the c5 sims with "voice" well be less visit? or will it be more visit and the c4 sims will poof out? This are som question i ask.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

Prok, one of the best written and well-thought-out posts I've seen. The points you make are quite valid-- and validated in my experience, when we experimented at adding Skype to our group activities. While it was fine for things such as GM chatter to maintain a live RPG-- using it in game definitely took away from the experience.

Yes, typing is cumbersome. But as you stated, it helps maintain the "fantasy". The written word is as old as society itself, and fantasy through the written word an established wonder. Break that up by having an "Orc" with a voice definitely not suited to the part, and the fantasy suffers. Not to mention that those who cannot speak-- and those who cannot hear-- will have their world shattered if a system like this goes voice. They would have to create their own soundless lands just to continue to use SL-- and would be in very real effect barred from the rest of the SL landscape.

So Prok, you were spot on in this one. Some peole may agree-- some may intentionally ignore or deny the points made-- but every point you made imho, was spot-on... not the least of which is adding additional heavy bandwidth issues to an already lag-laden, suffering system. It's throwing common sense out the window... again.

[Prokofy Neva]

Misty,

I think you have a point about group discussions. They might work better for those cranky sorts that always bitch that no one is "listening" to them because they can't manage to just type and fit in the flowing scroll. Now they'll just be able to shout over others or speak up and force people to listen to them, whereas before, they'd have to just fit in the scroll. I find that every single group meeting develops a person like that, who sits and fumes and bitches that no one is "letting" him talk or no one is "listening" when in fact he simply hasn't gotten the social cue that he just has to jump in and type into the scroll like any other person in the room and not look for special clearance and attention.

I also don't like the concept that it's "against progress" or "you have to keep an open mind" on something like this. It isn't our choice. I don't see thousands of people demanding this on the feature voter. I don't see blogs lobbying for this. I see nothing. I see the Lindens adding a bell and a whistle, literally. Bludgeoning people with a feature and then telling them to adapt isn't technological progress, and you can't ask people to be "open minded" when you yourself have not been "open minded" and asked them if they even *want* this feature.

[Prokofy Neva]

>One thing voice WILL do is strip away a lot of illusion in Second Life, which may not be a sensible thing for LL to have done, still, when has LL ever worried about sensible

Bingo.

[janeforyou Barbara]

omg! Also…the pro “online” sex girls will come to SL !!!!!! imaoooo-
I can se the Escort Add : ” sexy 25 yare tall blonde Voicechat with you for only 1 USD a minn” Geeeaazzzz!! a girl will be able to make 200-300 USD real cash a day here!!

[Zaphekiah Zarf]

I could not agree with you more, Prokofy. Years ago I used to go into Excite Superchat, then they introduced voice (about eight years ago) and it wrecked it for me. That just used 32 pixel avatars against a patterned background which was supposed to represent a room, but voice still managed to spoil what little illusion there was, because the register was wrong. It sounded like a conversation between radio hams or on CB radio, not people sitting in the same room. People sound different when they are sitting in front of a mike than when they are walking around and talking, indoors or out. They have to punctuate their speech with markers, over, or strange verbal inflections, to let other people know when they have finished speaking. If this takes off I will almost certainly stop visiting SL. I only came across it a month ago, so I don't really have too much invested yet.

[janeforyou Barbara]

I am openminded wen it comes to Adult Gay males/girls/trensgengers/shemales, but how to controll the kids? A 12 y old girl/boy with a 56 y plummer—warning warning!!! That CAN close SL totaly! We are then in a situation were the 56 y old KNOW hes talking with a 12y, The law and the goverment come in there, am i as a SIM owner responsible here? How to controll it?

[Raindrops]

Why does LL insinuate that the SL population wants this when it is clear that it does not?

Do they ever listen to us anymore?

And where are these third party voice modifier software that Joe Linden speaks of on his blog post?

[Fiend Ludwig]

I am deeply opposed to voice chat in SL unless LL provides a bomb-proof way to add effective voice masking. SL is all about a *second* life - my voice is an exclusive feature of my first life and I want it to stay that way.

[Tad McConachie]

I think that having the potential for voice chat in SL will be fantastic. That said, I have no intention of using it all the time, or even most of the time. Voice chat will be great for:

Introducing friends to Second Life - I can tell them how to do things much quicker by talking to them than by typing.

Leading Discussion Groups - I suppose this is already feasible to do with the same tech as the live music events, but maybe setup, etc will be easier. It would be nice to listen to teachers, etc. Again, easier to convey a lot of information quickly through talking than typing and reading reams of text.

Talking with family and friends within Second Life - regardless of my alt's gender/furryness/etc, I won't mind talking to my closest friends and family using voice within SL. Sure, I can do this already with skype, etc, but this will be one less step and hopefully more seamless.

Organizing Group Events - even though, as Prok says, we aren't doing WoW style raids, there are times when a whole bunch of Avatars get together to do something all together. Protests, formal events like weddings, etc. Voice Chat may be an excellent tool for that.

I'm looking forward to voice chat in SL, though as most of you have said, if it costs any significant extra amount of cash, I think I'll pass.

[Clarrice Cinquetti]

I agree Fiend. My partner is SL tried the Ventrillo (sp) and we heard a few of our friends in SL talking. The 2 women in SL were 25-30 yr. old looking Avatars but their voices were that of an older woman (The Aunts on the Simpsons come to mind.) We uninstalled the program and swore to not use it again.

The whole idea of SL is to have a second life, using my voice and hearing others ruins it for me.

There are enough outside programs people can use without SL wasting their effort having their own. They have too many other things that need fixed first.

[Jayson Watkin]

Voice has come up a number of times as a failure of Second Life. My one professor states that holding a class in Second Life would be better if voice was an option. My friend that I tried to introduce to SL was disappointed because of the difficulty he had in communicating through typing.

At the same time, masking must be an important part of bringing voice chat to Second Life. Not only are cross-gendered avatars effected, but so are all the elves, furries, vampires and other creatures that inhabit our world. I believe it would be difficult to believe you are talking to a small woodland creature if they sound like they are from Northern New Jersey.

And while lecturing via voice may make it more realistic, I personally prefer the instant note-taking afforded by text chat.

[Martin Squeegee]

Prok,

Dear Diary... I have read something of yours and actually agree with it... well done!

[Oolon Sputnik]

Okay, in RL I'm a professional voice-over artist and I still don't have a use for 'voice' in SL.

Come on. Noting is going to break the suspension of disbelief like trolling round Caledon and hearing some Colonial blabbering on about nothing cos talk is cheap and requires a lot less effort that spelling something correctly and being poloite. Joy, swearing griefers. Can't smile wide enough.

No Lindons. Keep it. Thanks but no thanks. Fix all the bugs before you start rolling out more gimmicks. We're a community, how about asking us to vote on stuff like this and pretending you give a flying f@ck instead of just trolling out the money earners for education and the new corporations?

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

'I believe it would be difficult to believe you are talking to a small woodland creature if they sound like they are from Northern New Jersey.'

That's interesting Jayson - what *should* they sound like? :-)

It's actually a serious question:
MUST all vampyres have a 'Transylvanian' accent?
Should all knights and elves sound like members of the Royal Shakespeare Theatrical Company?
And WHAT should a dragon or a drow sound like?

More to the point - why should anyone sound like anything in particular? I don't know about you, but I tend to judge people, in SL and RL, by their behaviour, not Hollywood fueled preconceptions of what they ought to sound like...

[Steamroller]

Philip (with one L) was really against this several months ago. Someone must of dangled some serious venture capital money at him for him to change his mind so drastically and suddenly lol.

[marilyn murphy]

prok: my firt response to this was a tad flippant. i have been giving it a lot more thought.
a few years ago i had a computer that had teamspeak on it and i did chat with some people in sl. it was, less than fun. one person kept their mike open all the time and talked and talked and talked. others, the voice just was a dissappointment, and that great voice that made my eyes go dreamy, belonged to this very bookish builder type that would never ask a girl to go dancing. then there was the lady i really liked who sounded like she should have quit smoking 20 years ago. (i fear i might fall in this category)
self doubt about my own voice and the break in the illusion is more important than i indicated earlier, and i apologize for saying life will go on as before. on reflection, i don't think it will at all.
inigo: sorry, i want my dragons to sound like sean connery. don't you?

[Fallon Winnfield]

Not to stir the pot further, but there is a free, roaming voice chat *facilitator* that works anywhere in SL: Second Talk. We developed this a while back because we found voice useful for coordinating builds, machinima shoots, etc. and didn't want to be tied to a base station like the Vivox system.

Surprisingly enough, in the wake of the Linden announcement, many Second Talk users contacted us to say, "Please don't abandon this system because Linden is going to integrate voice!" Their reasons: price, not wanting to have their voice convos routed through captive servers, or just because Second Talk works everywhere.

So, we're making our own announcement today: Second Talk is free forever, we'll support it as long as people want it, and it works everywhere--now. If you want to use it, cool. If you don't, that's cool too.

[Prokofy Neva]

>a bomb-proof way to add effective voice masking.

I'm tired of being offered this concept of "voice-masking" as a sop. As others have noted, I don't want some fake Darth Vader voice, and I don't even want my real voice to be modified into some fake male-sounding voice. I just want to have an avatar and type. I have Skype if I really really REALLY need to come into voice contact with somebody over an emergency or something.

Somehow, it feels "natural enough" to have avatars and props that are flexible and admit for having opposite genders or no genders or even being a creature. But trying to take voice and modify it seems that much more artificial as to really strain credulity.

Also, as per usual, our Lindens are saying that if they can't do it 100 percent, they won't do it at all. This tekkie perfectionist literalism drives me insane. They had some possibilities but they refused to incorporate them, they say, because they didn't work well enough.

Like...that ever stops them from releasing patches every Wednesday???

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm wondering where people got the idea that Philip was against this. I find absolutely no evidence of it.

In fact it was Philip, who says he hates typing and hates the obstacle and lack of immediacy, that pushed SL into the voiced Town Halls. So he went full speed ahead on voice, using a Skype channel for the townhalls.

Where is he on the record saying he didn't want voice for the world? Of course he did -- he's the one putting it in now, duh.

[Prokofy Neva]

>Voice has come up a number of times as a failure of Second Life. My one professor states that holding a class in Second Life would be better if voice was an option. My friend that I tried to introduce to SL was disappointed because of the difficulty he had in communicating through typing.

>At the same time, masking must be an important part of bringing voice chat to Second Life. Not only are cross-gendered avatars effected, but so are all the elves, furries, vampires and other creatures that inhabit our world. I believe it would be difficult to believe you are talking to a small woodland creature if they sound like they are from Northern New Jersey.

Well, that's the whole idea. The idea is to get rid of all these furries who really sound like they are from New Jersey, and make the platform useable for business and education. This entertainment/fantasy/world phase is one that the Lindens view as very, very expendable, and regardless of its role in paying for their bottom line initially, and even today, they have made it very, very clear that they really don't like it, don't want it, and are working overtime to get rid of it as fast as they can.

[HoJo Kilda]

Like others have stated before here, I have no use for voice in SL. To me this is a fantasy world and I prefer to keep it that way. I don't want to hear what you sound like, I enjoy creating the image in my mind, like when I read a book. Also, live in a big city and I'm surrounded with a lot of noise all the time. I come into SL for some peace and to immerse myself in a SECOND LIFE. I talk all the day in my job, at home, with RL friends, if I wanted to teleconference with people, I'd do it elsewhere. I generally prefer to communicate with the written word as I can take time to carefully craft a sentence. I feel that is a great appeal to many in SL too.

In SL, I work in the sex trade and while my husband is aware of this, he really doesn't need to hear the intimate details. Voice makes things far too personal for my taste and if I wanted to do phone sex, I would do it and not here in SL.

I'm not even going to get into the hell this will play with those who speak different languages and dialects, let alone the deaf or hard of hearing. Nor will I get into the opportunities this will open to griefing of all sorts. I don't allow use of those stupid GROWL gestures and the like for a reason in my club.

Anyway it seems as though my SL partners and I have just sunk a lot of money and effort into creating our business here for nothing now, since I'll be essentially a second class citizen here in SL. Thanks a bunch!

[Fiend Ludwig]

@Prok - if they do come up with "a bomb-proof way to add effective voice masking" which as you rightly point out, they probably will not, I will officially declare that I am no longer 'deeply opposed', just plain old 'opposed'.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Prok. Yes - he clearly wanted voice Town Halls, as you say, it suited him, he hates typing.

However I was present at, either the first or second voice Town Hall when he was asked how soon could we have voice inworld.
His reply was that while he thought it a great idea for Town Halls (surprise, surprise), he wasn't in favour of it for the grid - or words to that effect.

If you want to see 'proof', I'm sorry, no can do.

Firstly I don't have any idea of the date, or the location of the 'transcript'.

Secondly as you must be aware the 'transcripts' are not at all accurate, being full of omissions and paraphrases.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Marilyn - MY dragon sounds like me... And not being a Scot I don't have Sean's Glasgow burr. :-) Even so, that Dragon's me, which it wouldn't be with a 'Sean Connery audio filter' switched on.

[Cocoanut Koala]

Nimrod, it was me who suggested Weedy might be a man.

Now to the topic.

1. At least, Prok, they are NOT jacking up prices on the mainland for this. So that’s good! We on the mainland will not suffer, for a change. Also, you can turn it off on your own land.

2. I take comfort from what someone said about There. They said that although everyone could have voice in There, he found that almost no one used it!

3. I have a perfectly fine voice, and it fits my avatar, so that’s not a problem for me. Nonetheless, I don’t intend to get into the habit of talking to people, and will have this turned off on my land.

I have spent years perfecting how to talk in chat, and it requires just a whole lot less attention to nuance, etc., and niceties, than does talking to someone on the phone or any stranger irl. Bring in voice for me, and it will automatically mean spending far more time being properly social, and less time getting things done. (I like social, mind you, but voice takes much more effort and attention.)

Far less data to process mentally comes in from others' typing than does from their actual voices.

4. Voice is also more intimate. I don’t necessarily want to be that intimate with strangers on the internet. Sharing my voice with them IS intimacy. I know this for a fact, because I’ve met many people from the internet irl. Voice is an integral part of my actual person. I don’t want my actual person in SL, either.

While I choose to speak irl to people I don’t know, I’m prepared for it – I’ve gone out of my house, or decided to answer the phone. To speak on SL to LOTS of people I don’t know – well, no.

5. When I am talking to someone irl on the phone, they hear the background noises from my home. I don’t want to share those noises with/inflict those noises on every person on the internet who happens to walk up to me.

6. I, too, worry about not being able to hear what people say. Except on my own land, where I can turn it off. I’d hate to have to get the set-up just to LISTEN. And then I wouldn’t just listen, so there you go.

7. It will be good for those who are typing-challenged.

8. Zaphekiah is right about disembodied voices. Just listen to one of Johnny Ming’s podcasts. (Well, I have listened to ten minutes of one.) Same problem with conference calls. People don’t sound nearly as stilted when they are actually physically present with other people irl. One-on-one phone calls - far less problem.

9. I don’t think LL is timing this to deflect attention from other problems, like taking away ingame transaction records. I really do think LL fiddles while Rome burns, and quite innocently, for the most part.

10. As for your voice, Prok, it is a wonderful voice! I know it will wreck your immersion and everyone’s immersion if you have to use it, but people will enjoy the personality that comes through in it.

11. As for voice degrading the already suffering overall SL performance, well, I figure of course it will. Hopefully turning it off will prevent that for individuals.

12. I agree that the entertainment/fantasy world is now of zero importance to the Lindens. I also agree - there is no question that all dragons should sound like Sean Connery.

coco

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

'This entertainment/fantasy/world phase is one that the Lindens view as very, very expendable, and regardless of its role in paying for their bottom line initially, and even today, they have made it very, very clear that they really don't like it, don't want it, and are working overtime to get rid of it as fast as they can.'

Interesting - and when LL has cleared out all the 'Unreal' characters in SL, leaving only the ones who are accurate representations of their RL counterparts, then what?
Are the Educators going to educate each other?
The business people going to do business with each other?

Because there will be VERY few left - how many AVs do you know who don't have an element of fantasy?

I must say, if I were still allowed in at that point it would be fascinating to watch the Educators attempting to teach the business types, not to mention the Business people attempting to sell to the Educators! :-)

It's an interesting concept Prok - but one that won't fly. If only because the outcome would be sterile, like when a horse humps a donkey.
But actually clearing SL of 'unreal' AVs would take some doing too! Imagine squads of Lindens hunting down Unicorns, Dragons, Furrys, Fae... Imagine the PR fallout?

:-) Ah well, back to reality... er, SL reality that is, I'm getting confused now...

[Zetaphor Tengu]

I am a new part time member of There, and I was curious about how the voiced users would interact with the simply text based. After some time I observed that many people were still dominantly using text chat, they would use voice amongst the people they knew closely. Naturally there were people who were much more open, but they all seemed fine with people who they knew and did not know using text chat. I know this is limited observation to any majority of users on There, but eventually SL residents will find ways to comfortably use voice, and to interact with those who choose not to.

[Cocoanut Koala]

Correction on the There thing I said above. Jim Lumiere has posted on the blog:

-----

I was playing There.com when they introduced voice. It split the community in two. Those with voice and those without (for whatever reason, including capability, choice, etc.).

Events became default voice only, and trying to participate without voice was futile. People without voice became as 2nd class citizens.

----

Combine this with the post above, and I see it is a mixed bag. I will take less comfort now.

coco

[Artemis Fate]

Wow Prok, you've certainly been on a stint of coherent, insiteful, and thought out posts with only a small paragraph or two where you break away and start ranting about oppression and conspiracies. I'm impressed.

I for one, am a person who is very much against voice chat, largely in part (And i'm not sure if anyone mentioned this) from another girl gamer article on voice I read where voice chats are hard for girls because guys simply shout over them and interrupt them. I think this would be the same for SL, people shouting over one another and interrupting one another. One of the things i've always HATED about voice is that most of the time i'd do it I'd either be getting interrupted or talked over, or people would be going "what? I can't understand that" or i'd be doing it to them. Not to mention of course, if you miss something they have to repeat it, since there's no chat history to look up for voice chat. And what of the crowded clubs with 70 people packed into one area? It's not like FPS where even the largest game populations would only have 32 max talking to each other, or MMORPGs where it's only groups of 6-8, and there voice is useful because it gets out time-critical orders faster. Where in SL there's no such thing.

Another thing, and I think this was mentioned, was that there's a large "foreign" (to me anyways) population that doesn't speak english. Atleast in text you can parlay it into a babbler or babelfish and get a rough idea of what they're saying and vice versa. I had a half hour conversation in portugese that way. But with voice that's not at all possible unless you hire a translator or something.

Ultimately as people have said, it seems like a useless and unwanted feature that could be better served by just using Skype or Ventrillo, after all, if this voice program is going to be made by LL, then it's going to be extremely buggy and low on features for a long time and people will likely just keep with ventrillo and skype anyways.

[Brian McKenna]

As a member of the hard of hearing/deaf community, I certainly don't like what this does to the world that I've come to know and love over the past few months. Second Life, for me, has been an escape from the life I live every day in a world of partial-silence (I am not profoundly deaf myself). This addition will certainly make it harder for me to communicate and is an unwelcome change. Thanks a lot, Linden Lab.

[shockwave yareach]

Let's take this one more step along, shall we? Why don't we require everyone who has a character to send in several RL photos of themselves and make their new "default" avatars look like RL versions of their real selves? Wouldn't that be just grand? Wouldn't SL be better if everyone could recognize you ingame just as readily as if they saw you walking down the street? Imagine what a better game it would be if we eliminated all those complex avatars (and their database loads) and made Second Life more like First Life but with added features like the power of flight and teleportation and such.

Oh, but that would destroy the illusion, you'd say. And you'd be right. Second Life is clearly catering to their big companies who want to use it as a lowcost teleconference tool. Not that that's a bad thing in an of itself. But SL shouldn't pretend that the bulk of their users want this, particularly when other desires like stability and inventories which don't randomly lose items have gone unmet.

[Just a Thought]

1.) Voice is coming - doesn't matter if you want it or not.

2.) No one is required to use Voice.

That is all - please return to your regularly scheduled bitching, complaining and all around lack of clear thought.

[Cocoanut Koala]

Just a thought - I have just a thought. I wonder, is there anything LL does that you don't like? I'm serious. Is there one thing LL does that you feel you could improve upon, or wish were done another way?

coco

[Ian Betteridge]

Good post, Prok. I completely agree with you.

[Just a Thought]

Coco - I could not care less what LL, AOL, Microsoft, IBM, Intel or any company does ... they're looking out for their own interests and there really isn't much we can do about it.

One thing I wish all of them would do however is to permanently ban all the little twits that do nothing at all other than sit there and complain when they know damn well the company is not listening - at least not when it isn't in their interest. In addition to this ban they should nuke (remote reformat) their Hard Discs, drain their accounts and make damn sure they won't ever complain about another thing ever again - sadly this isn't legal and never will be.

In short Coco - I don't waste my time bitching about the actions of a company. Instead I make damn certain I shove the futility of doing so in the faces of the lack witted twits that actually think they can change what the company does with words. if they really wanted a change they'd yank their assets and use a different service - that is what it boils down to.

[Cocoanut Koala]

But we can change things, just a thought. We have changed them before. We don't necessarily get to choose what and how we change, but they do listen.

If we didn't express our views, they couldn't even change those things they are willing to.

coco

[Just a Thought]

No coco - your idea just happened to coincide with what they wanted. In addition the only time needless bitching gets anything done is when they actually see people leaving over an issue.

That's it. words do jack shit by themselves.

[Cocoanut Koala]

No, I've been in a focus group with them, where I've seen our ideas implemented.

I've also been one-on-one with them and had my idea implemented.

coco

[Just a Thought]

God for you coco - you're not the average user.

The average user cannot do jack shit - what part of that is so hard to understand hmm?

Drop it - you're an exception, not the rule.

[Just a Thought]

Good even - pardon me ....

[Artemis Fate]

I think whether or not you can change the Linden's minds depends on the feature. Sometimes they're "eeeeeh I don't know about this, let's put it out there and see what happens" and highly influenced by feedback. Othertimes they're "we're doing this, and we don't give a shit what any of you think". I'm not sure about this one, but if Philip is all "I hate typing, let's put in speech!" it might be the latter.

Either way, I kinda doubt anything will be done about it by commenting on a 3rd party news blog that the Lindens rarely come to, and probably rarely read.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

'Either way, I kinda doubt anything will be done about it by commenting on a 3rd party news blog that the Lindens rarely come to, and probably rarely read.'

WRONG... As we know Sunshine Linden is a avid reader for one.

[Misty McConachie]

"4. Voice is also more intimate. I don’t necessarily want to be that intimate with strangers on the internet. Sharing my voice with them IS intimacy. I know this for a fact, because I’ve met many people from the internet irl. Voice is an integral part of my actual person. I don’t want my actual person in SL, either."

Excellent point. I think you've articulated one of my *major* concerns with it.

My voice fits my avatar just fine, nevertheless I'm not sure that I want to be railroaded into experiencing the intimate contact that voice affords with people I can't even see and have never met in RL.

Ultimately I don't know the people I chat with in SL *that* well. Regularly people you meet seem normal enough at first, but turn out to be a little loopy over time. Voice is going to add an extra dimension to a crumbling SL relationship!

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

> am deeply opposed to voice chat in SL unless LL provides a bomb-proof way to add effective voice masking. SL is all about a *second* life - my voice is an exclusive feature of my first life and I want it to stay that way. -- Fiend LudwigThere are enough outside programs people can use without SL wasting their effort having their own. They have too many other things that need fixed first. -- Clarrice Cinquett'I believe it would be difficult to believe you are talking to a small woodland creature if they sound like they are from Northern New Jersey.'
That's interesting Jayson - what *should* they sound like? :-)
It's actually a serious question:
MUST all vampyres have a 'Transylvanian' accent?
Should all knights and elves sound like members of the Royal Shakespeare Theatrical Company?
And WHAT should a dragon or a drow sound like?
I don't know about you, but I tend to judge people, in SL and RL, by their behaviour, not Hollywood fueled preconceptions of what they ought to sound like... -- Inigo Chamerberlin One thing I wish all of them would do however is to permanently ban all the little twits that do nothing at all other than sit there and complain when they know damn well the company is not listening... In short Coco - I don't waste my time bitching about the actions of a company. -- JATNo coco - your idea just happened to coincide with what they wanted. In addition the only time needless bitching gets anything done is when they actually see people leaving over an issue. That's it. words do ******** by themselves. -- JATGood for you coco - you're not the average user. What part of that is so hard to understand hmm? Drop it - you're an exception, not the rule.<

No, Coco isn't the average user. She has some brains to her and the ability to see something for what it really is. But-- she is not the exception to the rule. I could give you a nice list JAT, of times that I have stood toe-to-toe with Linden Lab and finally scored some benefits for the community. I can point to others who have done the same thing. Estate Tools-- Expanded Group Tools-- dozens of minor fixes that are too tedious to mention here-- all came about because someone got royally ticked put the hot irons to LL until someone finally did something.

So no, Coco's experiences are not unique-- no matter how loudly you shout. You can claim all you want that "it's just something LL was going to do anyway"... but you have no data or facts to back such statements-- it's all personal conjecture and personal opinion. Which is OK, if that's what it's offered as. Attacking others and trying to cram your opinion down their throats crosses the line from debate to trolling. Which is why people take offense at such posts. Ever heard of tact? Just because you believe something doesn't make it Word-o-God.

Coco and I have both seen a consistent pattern of Linden Lab reacting to pressure from groups of angry customers when they previously failed to consider polite requests.

Sorry guy that's the way it is. I think Coco and I (as well as Prok and others) have enough experince with LL to know firsthand how the company operates and reacts to customers.

[like_ummm]

Hey - Just a Thought - you didn't answer coco's question:

'I wonder, is there anything LL does that you don't like? ... Is there one thing LL does that you feel you could improve upon, or wish were done another way?'
Answer that question please.

So you waste your time bitching about the bitching instead - do you?
Answer that question too please.

[Just a Thought]

Umm, I answered the question - got anything constructive to ask? No? thought so.

Hate to break it to you wayfinder but a company watches its own ass. That's the way it works. The only time they listen to the words of a customer is when it is to their benefit. That is the reality. It is in a company's interest to prevent as many people as possible from taking their money out .... and when a large number of people do so guess what? They change. If they even think a large number will pull their funds - they change.

That is how it works. Please try hard not to believe you can change anything with words alone - it doesn't work and that is a fact.

[like_ummm]

You did not answer the question again.

'Is there anything LL does that you don't like?'

I understand that you may want to dodge that question at all costs since this is precisely what you are complaining about (complaining that is). I understand your agenda - to stop people complaining, to shut down any discussion about these issues...

So I understand that you may never give a straight answer to this question. You've made it obvious that you are not interested in any free and open discussion. So - how about you take your own advice?:

You cant change things with your words - so GTFO. Or maybe you think you can change things with words - is that why you are still here? Or perhaps you work for LL?

[Just a Thought]

Umm, I answered the question by stating I don't give a shit what companies do. It is that simple - and apparently you are incapable of understanding such a simple answer.

Now- kindly take your bullshit to someone that cares hmm?

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

JaT, I think you're not getting the point that Like is making. Same point I made earlier.

If you believe that words have no effect, why are you wasting your time here?

If you believe that complaining is wrong... then why are you complaining about the complainers? It occurs to us that if you really believed what you're saying, you wouldn't be wasting your time complaining about us complaining. It's kind of like shooting someone for being violent enough to go hunting.

Sorry guy, your argument is somewhat self-defeating. XD

[Just a Thought]

:Yawn: I'm not trying to change anyone either Wayfinder - that's the point I'm making - one you and the twit with the teenage valley girl handle missed.

Done missing the point? I hope so, otherwise we're going to be here for some time.

[like_ummm]

What? Are those words you are using? Are you so naive as to think words can change anything?

When you cant use words to bring about change you can use ummmm... well... wtf can you use? I know - the sword. Afterall - 'the sword is mightier than the pen'.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

JaT, I get one point (and I'm sure the "twit with the valley girl handle" does too):

You're a mouth. Nothing more. Nuff said.

[Just a Thought]

:Yawn: what was that? That was the sound of the point whizzing right by your head.

when you are ready to cease your rather infantile tactics Umm and actually present something to discuss please feel free to respond to me - until then all you are doing is showing just how much of a twit you really are.

Here is your thought for the day: Do not attempt to debate a point with someone that feels change requires more than words. Do not attempt to debate such over the internet either - no one wins such a debate as all the internet is .... is words on a screen.

Hmm - oh - and please keep dancing to the script.

[Just a Thought]

apparently you don't wayfinder - here's the final point: You're wasting your time in continuing the debate. I don't give a damn what you say, what evidence you cite.

Corporations are motivated by greed it is that simple. You want to effect a change? Hit them where it counts.

Heres the final point and fact for you: This entire argument is pointless as you're both just dancing to a script. I'm being an asshole here deliberately and you really should have sen it by now and simply stopped responding.

Until someone says something worth my time to type in response .... I think I'll go and sit under the stars and smoke my pipe.

[like_ummm]

ok - i'm done - its official JaT is a troll employed by the Lindens.

[Just a Thought]

It's official - you're a twit who doesn't know what you're talking about.

:yawn: Please get your facts straight before posting in the future - I'm unemployed.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

Ok, now that troll-boy has predictably patted himself on the back for being oh-so-clever... back to the theme of the thread... sound on SL.

Linden Lab will do as Linden Lab wants to do. That's their pattern. The question of primary discussion it seems, is how such will be implemented IF it's implemented, and what effect it will have on the SL community.

I predict IF it's implemented-- it will further damage the platform. As someone stated above, it will fracture the system into the "soundies" and "texties". So what if it causes problems and the vast majority of customers don't like the idea. So what if there are viable alternatives that don't impact SL itself. It's always a good idea to further divide the unity of a system, so hey, I say go for it. LOL

[like_ummm]

Yea - sure you're unemployed - a smart guy like you unemployed? That's not what I heard. Did Philip himself tell you to say that?

[like_ummm]

Sorry - no more from me...

...Yes this voice thing - They should fix things before they start introducing new stuff i reckon. Now - what kind of action can we as users take? Any good ideas? (not stuff that has been tried before and failed).

We could boycott the beta grid - so they cannot test their stuff - would that hurt them at all? With open source viewer we could introduce premium accounts to pay open-source developers wages...

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

':yawn: Please get your facts straight before posting in the future - I'm unemployed.'

Now THERE'S a surprise!

[Steamroller]

Prokofy Neva>>>I'm wondering where people got the idea that Philip was against this. I find absolutely no evidence of it.

In fact it was Philip, who says he hates typing and hates the obstacle and lack of immediacy, that pushed SL into the voiced Town Halls. So he went full speed ahead on voice, using a Skype channel for the townhalls.

Where is he on the record saying he didn't want voice for the world? Of course he did -- he's the one putting it in now, duh."

Here is a brief history of Philips position of voice in SL as posted by Persephone Milk on the Linden Blog. While he doesn't outright say he doesn't want voice, he certainly is aware of the it's pitfalls and, IMHO, reflects a determination to do it right or not at all.

Town Hall 3/16/06

Philip Linden: I’m not sure, but I agree that voice would be great for those who want it. It may be that we just open up SL enough, like with better XML-RPC out, etc, that we get that for free. There are already some solutions like that in SL. But really voice chat should be done with 3D localization of the speaker…and that may be easier for us to do. But honestly I’m not sure which way we will go.

Town Hall 04/06/06

Philip Linden: There’s a lot of conversation in the community and there’s been a lot of conversation in this office about voice and voice chat. People in Second Life obviously have a lot of different discussions about how effective voice chat can be, whether it should be something that is broadly available. People often talk about There.com and about how voice works or doesn’t work there. Obviously theres a couple of big sides to the discussion.

Voice is very fast and powerful and expressive as a way of communicating. On the other hand there is a certain magic and power to communicating quietly, communicating with text. It allows people to preserve their identity, or their real life identity, in a way that is very appropriate and consistent with the kind of, you know, new world aspects and new identity aspects of Second Life. So that is something we’ve really thought about a lot.

It’s not an easy thing to match everybody’s desires on this. One design idea I wanted to throw out for discussion in this program, and then in the forums or email or otherwise after this, was if the ability to do voice communication between people was tied to the parcel of land. So it was something you’d click a check box that said “enable voice chat” on a land parcel?, and then the people that walked on to that parcel if they had headphones on and wanted to use would just walk up to each other and voice chat would just work.

That method might be more appealing as a socially balanced kind of approach, because it wouldn’t then allow people to kind of exclude each other by standing and using voice chat anywhere in Second Life while the person standing next to them either couldn’t or didn’t want to, but it would allow, by using it on land, people to create something like an education center where it would be turned on all the time. So I wanted to throw that out, that idea of voice chat on parcels of land as something for people to talk about and think about it.

It seems to me it would be a better idea, a little bit more consistent with the way Second Life works. Also, I think it is consistent with things like the idea of streaming onto a parcel. You stream live music today by parcel. You walk on a parcel and you hear live music. Under this model you would walk onto a parcel or chose not to, and when you were on that parcel you’d be able to chat, just a thought.

Town Hall 05/18/2006

Philip Linden: Well, we’re thinking lots right now, there’ve been lots of people using voice in Second Life, as everyone knows already. We’re doing it right now. There are also some amazing possibilities with voice. There are ways to, even prototypically, extend Second Life to use voice pretty effectively - tie that to property, tie that to objects, etc. So, I think that we’re definitely going to see a lot of voice use. Our concerns have been, and continue to be, great ways of bringing voice into Second Life that don’t alienate those who don’t want to use voice. You know the risk that you increase the communicative capability, or the sort of bandwidth, if you will, of communication, while at the same time reducing it in a different way by forcing people to lose some of the freedom that they have in defining who they are is tough - that’s a hard tradeoff.

Having said that, I think that we need to think positively about voice in general - in other words, we need to as designers, look at what people are going to do anyway very rapidly, and then say, ‘Is there a way we can accelerate that, or make that work better, maybe add features, capabilities, or implementation details that tend to make it easier to protect people’s privacies where they want to have those privacies?’ Again, that’s not a specific direction, but I guess the answer I give is, I think we’re closer now to feeling like voice is something that Second Life needs, but we’re still troubled by exactly how to do that effectively, and we’re thinking about it right now.

Town Hall 7/7/06

Philip Linden: The issue on voice is that we are playing around with this, like others are. I don’t have any specific this is what we’re going to do when we are trying the systems and playing with it in world it is very powerful for certain kinds of communication, on the other hand, I can’t just “be” Philip Linden and keep anonymous as I can when I type. We’d like to see voice filtering and masking, but the technology isn’t very advanced yet and it’s just sort of infuriating. If there is technology that can change your voice, age, gender, and you can’t tell — I’d love to see it.

[Prokofy Neva]

>But really voice chat should be done with 3D localization of the speaker…and that may be easier for us to do. But honestly I’m not sure which way we will go.

It's funny, like Jesus and Lenin, people push and pull Philip quotes to mean just about anything they want them to.

Philip is playing Physics Kid here. He wasn't thrilled with voice merely because he couldn't make it immersive enough to sound realistic with distances and such. He articulates these other community concerns just to be the sort of "peacemaker" type with "on the one hand and on the other".

He notes that it "has to be done" with the "localization' and he expresses concern "that may be easier" implying LL itself may not be up to it. But they found a company to put it in for them, they made much of that technical side of it. So they put it in, because they had a technical challenge, and met it.

These folks are like my mom, constantly waxing our floor on Saturday mornings, despite knowing full well we would be home, and we'd walk all over it and ruin it. Finally, she gave us a quarter to go to the movies and get out of the way.

The Lindens only care about waxing the floor and we're in the way. But they don't give us the quarter for the movie. For Khamon, the quarter is open-source. For me, it's participation in decision-making about the features inclusion. For somebody else, it's something else. But we have neither a waxed floor or a movie.

[Steamroller]

Im not as pessimistic about his intentions as you are Prokofy, nor do I read much into what his true intentions might have been throughout the period covering the above townhall meetings.

The way I see it, the above "were" his true intentions until he sold too much of his soul to the "proverbial devil."

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

Question in general: What does it matter what Philip personally wants or doesn't want, or what he one time wanted and what he wants now? (people's opinions can change-- even Philip's. Especially Philip's. LOL).

Of far greater importance is what SL customers in general want, and whether the LL decision making process will take that into consideration-- or as we've seen in the past totally disregard customer needs and desires and flat do whatever they feel like doing?

I sometimes think that's what it really boils down to: making arbitrary system-wide decisions that affect everyone. Linden Lab has the right to do so of course; it's their board. But customers have the right to get royally ticked too. And since the customers pay the bills-- it's natural they might have some objections to such a business philosophy.

I do agree with one thought (and demonstrated it in my personal case): if people are getting tired of the way LL is running things, the best way to demonstrate that is start a board-wide boycott. Encourage people to abandon land, stop paying premiums, drop to Basic or Freebie users, stop supporting Linden Lab projects and concepts and let the company know how ticked off you are. Start an OFFICIAL boycott and follow it through to the end. I boycotted the system by ceasing all support of the board-- and the Elf Clan Counsel followed suit. That was our choice. If people really want to get Linden Lab to wake up and take notice, they need to take action. The troll was right in that aspect-- despite his self-defeating and anti-social behavior, the way to fight Linden Lab is to do more than complain; you need to hit them in the pocketbook.

If you want to fight the way LL is running things, contact their advertisers and corporate supporters (such as IBM) and let them know how people feel. Start a protest march at Ahern and other newbie intake spots and tell newbies about griefers and land thieves and lag and inventory loss and other such things. Above all, if you know of anyone with the knowledge and wherewithall to set up competition-- absolutely encourage them to do so. Second Life is not so difficult a concept that it couldn't be duplicated in someone's garage. They might have to start small at first, but I'd lay dimes to donuts that within 1 year they could blow Second Life off the market.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

Follow up--- Not that I'm advocating blowing Second Life off the market. If Linden Lab indicated any common sense or ethics... if they showed any concern for their customers at all, if they exhibited a trend of learning from and corrected mistakes... well hey, we'd have worked with them rather than leaving the board. But they have consistently demonstrated a lack of willingness to deviate from an obviously failing business model. So if you can't get a company to wake up (and how many times have they been asked/begged/told to wake up to customer needs?)... then another option is to take 'em on head to head by setting up a competitive company with a better product. You can bet they'd take notice of customer needs then-- if their entire customer base didn't abandon them in the process.

[Nacon]

Just a Thought said:

"1.) Voice is coming - doesn't matter if you want it or not.

2.) No one is required to use Voice.

That is all - please return to your regularly scheduled bitching, complaining and all around lack of clear thought."

Agreed.

Wayfinder Said: "Second Life is not so difficult a concept that it couldn't be duplicated in someone's garage. They might have to start small at first, but I'd lay dimes to donuts that within 1 year they could blow Second Life off the market."

You're an idiot... another idiot said same thing 3 years ago. Where are they now? Oh yeah... it's over THERE.com

Second Life is still going strong and you can do nothing but grief like a fucktard.

Wayfinder said: "Follow up--- Not that I'm advocating blowing Second Life off the market."

...

Wayfinder Said: "Start a protest march at Ahern and other newbie intake spots and tell newbies about griefers and land thieves and lag and inventory loss and other such things."

...you're an idiot.

(blah blah blah, save your poems about what a troll I am, don't care.)

[Just a Thought]

:Yawn: nothing new I see - just the predictable posts calling someone that managed to get two people that cannot be bothered to know when to stop responding to dance to a tune (a life lesson by the by) a troll and a response from the Valley Girl twit showing just how paranoid he/she really is .... followed by a (failed) smart ass remark from the Prokofy tool Inigo.

Oh - thanks Nacon - glad to see someone agrees.

[Bujila]

Always nice to hear our 24 (or was it 23) years young boy-wonder Just A Thought going on about his knows-all world view :) No to worry though Just a thought, you too will grow up ;)

[Just a Thought]

always nice to see some little twit spout off about 'growing up' when it's quite clear they know jack shit about Humanity as a whole, have their blinders on, ignore everything that points out the base nature of Humanity, shatters their optimistic world ... I could go on and on but I think I'll boil it down to this:

Prove that Humanity is not driven by base instinct and that every person is incapable of acting out of true good faith and concern.

I'll save you the trouble - you can't. Nor can you prove that the driving force of a corporation is anything but greed.

Please - get over yourself Bujila .... You know nothing of me, my experience, and quite frankly you are the typical example of the bulk of Humanity. Please, go back to whatever it is you normally do and revel in your illusion of a world that does not flow on base instinct within which everyone watches their own ass and only does what they think (even subconsciously) will eventually benefit them.

My benefit right now? Laughing rather heartily at some of the rather predictable responses - and at you for actually thinking you know me.

[Khamon]

I've been a second class citizen for years for muting both audio and video. People are incessently caressing my soul with explanations of the Joy of Heaven they experience through inworld, land-based URLs. "Please" they beg me don't deny yourself this most important aspect of our world. Finally it boils down to me just not loving and understanding this world and a few have actually shunned me for thinking myself "too good" to participate in the common media experience.

So I've read these posts wondering hmmm would they be willing to do without inworld, land-based audio and video URLs? To me it's just the exact same nightmare happening over again.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

Nacon, ordinarily I don't reply to pure troll posts like yours, but I do have one question:

What is it in your mentality that thinks that in order to make a point, you have to insult other people? You can't just say something without calling other people idiots, or worse? Are you so insecure in your beliefs, so lacking in confidence that you have to put down other people to make your opinions seem more valid?

Every forum, every blog is plagued by people who are so arrogant in their opinions that they look down on others and congratulate themselves for being so incredibly intelligent. But I will promise you this: if you do eventually mature, you will look back on this and kick yourself in the butt for having such attitudes. If you live that long, because eventually, you're likely to cop such an attitude with the wrong person (in RL rather than hiding behind a keyboard)... and you'll find out that there can actually be consequenses in life for such things. Lost friends, lost jobs, divorce. It will eventually all come back to you.

So advice: either learn the lesson here and... or learn it in real life and pay the extemely heavy price that RL brings to such people.

You don't have to be a jerk to get a point across. If you choose to act like a jerk anyway-- who cares what point you're trying to make?

Grow up guys.

[Wayfinder Wishbringer]

LOL Bujila. Sounds like you got to him. Amazes me how an unemployed pipe-smoker knows so much about life, the universe and everything. One constant in life amazes me: that there are alwasy people (usually very young people) who think they know so incredibly much that they can look down their noses at everyone else, who of course, dance to their tunes like puppets on a string. Such mastery of life! Such incredible comprehension! The rest of us pale in their glory. XD

And in all of this, the only point that's been made is that he's griping about other people griping. LOL. and again, LOL. I've seen posts from these two in other threads... and it's exactly the same: the Troll Twins ganging up on other people and derailing the subject of threads. And amazingly-- they're so durn proud of themselves. Guess that only comes with mastery of universal awareness. The rest of us can only dream to achieve such greatness. :O

[Just a Thought]

Wayfinder - kindly follow your own advice hmm?

do you know me? Nope - you do not, therefore you cannot ever be sure of my intent when I post a response.

Now, I'm not going to say this a second time, if it doesn't sink in this time then it never will for you: The only TIME I EVER jump on someone in a response is when their post (such as the one you have made which I am responding to) shows that they really don't have a damn clue or that they actually think they know what the hell they're talking about.

so sorry that I don't share your optimistic view on life and Humanity - then again I don't live in a fantasy world where people do things "out of the kindness of their heart" or some other such nonsense.

I see Humanity for what it is - a waste of space. Thus far? Not a single person has managed to make me think otherwise - the exceptions are too few and far between.

With that in mind Wayfinder we come to the part I am not repeating - you'll either get it and understand or you won't. are you paying attention? Here we go: I frankly do not give a damn how old you are, what your world view is, what your opinion of Humanity is, or anything at all that relates to any of the prior listed items. To me, you're just another useless piece of trash living in a fantasy world where everyone looks out for each other (which only happens when the race or society as a whole is threatened)and deserve the treatment afforded such until such a time as you prove you're not worthless. if it comes to light that you're one of those few exceptions then expect different treatment from me.

I am normally quite pleasant .... but when it comes to this bullshit? You'd have a better time trying to get the earth itself to stop spinning. sorry pal - age does not always equal wisdom .... and I've seen enough to have my belief rooted quite deeply.

I do believe that Humanity may one day rise above its currently vapid existence .... but that day isn't going to be for a LONG time now - and you, me, even our children .... will be LONG dead by that time.

[Cocoanut Koala]

I derailed it. I shouldn't have. But I've been running across Just a Thought's comments for quite a while now, and I was curious. I did wonder if there was anything LL ever did that he thought wasn't right, or could be improved upon.

coco

[Just a Thought]

Oh - and to give a far more direct answer to your query Coco ... plenty but nothing at all related to performance issues or such things ....

My complaints have to deal with their policies on getting rid of griefers and the like (much too lax for my taste) and quite frankly are the sort of policies most would find appalling.

Oh dear. But now, I can't help commenting again. Since we are already firmly derailed, I guess it's not too big a crime.

Just a Thought, you are going through your cynical phase, but you are taking it to extremes. Humanity is not a waste of space - it is wondrous.

I think all it will really take