How Does Deadbeat Downbeat Dell Pay Land Tier?

Dell corporate island owner has no billing info on file

by Pixeleen Mistral, National Affairs desk

UPDATE - Today the Herald was able to contact Pyrrha Dell who assured us via e-mail that Dell is a good citizen - although the financial arrangements with Linden Lab are confidential. To try to entice Pyrhha to upgrade to a premium account, I’m hoping to take her shopping for clothes in Second Life soon - I’ve got an SL Herald Platinum Corporate Card that I used to verify my account - so I can expense the whole shopping spree. Hopefully search and teleports will be working consistently soon, and as long as we stay away from places that refuse entry to unverified avatars like Pyrrha it should be a great time!
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Hi Pixeleen,
You're right I don't get into Second Life nearly as often as I would like. But please don't take that as an indication that I'm not serious about Dell's involvement in Second Life. I've added a comment to your original post. While I can't go into details of Dell's financial agreements, I hope that my response does somewhat assuage the fear that Dell is not a responsible resident.
Thanks,
Laura

Laura P. Thomas, ABC*
Corporate Editor
Dell | Global eCommerce | Second Life | Pyrrha Dell
*Accredited Business Communicator | International Association of Business Communicators

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Corporate titan Dell Computer may have fallen on rough times of late, as the low overhead computer firm seeks to regain its former profitability. Perhaps it is a cost cutting measure - but it appears that Dell found a way to own land in Second Life without providing Linden Lab with payment information [using the same methods as normal residents]. How does this affect the Linden’s balance sheet? Can our readers get a similar deal - or does your last name have to be Dell to get out from under the tier payments? have a confidential financial arrangement?

Pyrrha Dell cannot pay

Dell’s Second Life presence consists of a number of islands owned by a Ms. Pyrrha Dell. However, Ms. Dell’s Second Life profile indicates that she has “No Payment Info On File” - which caused a number of metaverse residents to wonder how Dell makes land tier payments to the Linden Lab game gods.

A visit to the Dell islands confirmed what our sources had suggested - Dell’s island are not group owned - instead they are owned by a single person - Pyrrha Dell - yet somehow this resident remains unverified.

From the picture in her profile, Pyrrha seems to have done well enough on her appearance picking up freebie clothes, hair, and skin, but we are sure that many of our readers are deeply concerned that she is still unable to buy L$s at the Second Life web site. Although a number of residents have found ways to make L$s in the personal service industry to get themselves started in SL, we still wonder how Pyrrha managed that land purchase. Did Dell get a sweetheart deal from the Lindens? - and how can Pyrrha pay her bills? If you can use an unverified account to own an island is this a way to launder money?

Comments

[Urizenus]

If I'm not mistaken the payment for islands is a completely different payment system and doesn't figure with tier at all. You buy the island, pay the monthly fee, and then if you want to own stuff on the mainland you have to go about it the old fashioned way, by tiering up. If you don't want to mess with the mainland then there is no point in tiering up.

[quackers]

Rather than try to whip up one of your usual conspiracy theories, why not think about how companies typically do business?

Companies often pay for services and products by using purchase orders and invoices. The owner of Dell's islands probably did just that, never bothering to put a Credit Card or Paypal info in the account.

Unless you are just looking for vapid headlines, in which case please by all means go ahead with the tin-foil-hat theorizing.

[quackers]

Uri, my comment was posted before I saw yours. Just to be clear, I am addressing the author of the article, not you.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

Oh? Well about a year back it didn't work that way - you had to be premium to own an island, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered, starting with a new account as I did.

Nope, another case of special rules for special (corporate) people I fear. Still, having Dell onboard looks nice for LL, or so they probably think.

[Urizenus]

I guess I have to say I don't know what the policy is. Do normal folk need a premium acct to buy an island?

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

I don't know Uri - *I* did. Do I count as normal?

[Thaddeus Ning]

I just placed an order for an island today. And, yes, you (or at least *I* was required to be) must be a premium member to place an order for an island. Period. Read the Linden Land Purchase website.

[urizenus]

I stand corrected then.

[Prokofy Neva]

Well I asked in the Concierge Group, and none other authority on land in Second Life than Swoopin' Weedy Herbst said no, you don't need payment info on file.

Huh?

I don't see how this is possible.

If you don't, there's your laundromat for organized crime and international terrorism right there.

[Just a thought]

Let's see here, what the is glaring flaw in this article, and in people claiming one rule for them, another for the corporations....

Oh I know what it is!

dell is paying LL directly - no middle man, no need to have payment information on file. They're a corporation and as such can be and probably already are, one of LL's sponsors.

In short they have payment channels that the average joe user wouldn't have access to normally. That's the way it's always been when two companies have something the other wants: LL wants Dell's money - Dell wants another means of advertising.

Novel idea though - getting your money by allowing big name companies to have advertising space: Hmm I wonder why no one else thought of this before? OH! That's right! Nearly every service that opened its doors to free sign-ups and accounts has done this!

So why are you surprised that Linden Lab did the same?

[Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer]

Another theory you could possibly think of is that businesses are done a certain way for tax and legal issues.

I run my grandfather's companie's website, but he doesn't pay me directly. His account and lawyer advised that payments be made through the accountant to keep records easier, and straighter.

Certain write off's apply to companies who outsource thier internet information if they are selling no goods, but choose to have a 'web link' for business contacts.

Paying directly through a company credit card may sound well and good for a small company, but a large company like that, more than likely is paying LL directly.

[Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer]

(The above comment I accidentally deleted the rest of the last line, it should read:)

more than likely is paying LL directly to the company and not through the website style method of payment.

[Frans Charming]

If i'm not mistaken, one account orders the islands, then when they arrive he can transfer/sell the land to a other account which doesn't need payment on file. ;)

Maybe ivm had ordered the sims, and is being paid by Dell to keep maintaining them, but transfered the land to a Dell account.

[Hiro Pendragon]

Pixeleen, I'd like you to correct / retract this article because reaching out to my company for comments would have straightened out facts. You owe us and Dell an apology.

Because the Dell surname was custom ordered, it didn't go through the normal entrance process. Quandary solved.

[Urizenus]

Hiro, is the idea that they have a cc or payment info on file by virtue of ordering the custom name?

[Hiro Pendragon]

Uri, I can't disclose specific financial information about Dell, but I can this:

The only hard facts that Pixeleen has stated are:
1. Pyrrha Dell is shown on the Dell sims as the owner.
2. Pyrrha Dell's avatar's profile does not show payment info.

Now, given how buggy SL can be, and given how the Dell accounts were not created with the automated system, and given how Dell was clearly a custom order job, isn't it very probably that Pixeleen's two stated premises don't automatically imply that Dell isn't paying tier? Pixeleen can't even state a single precedent to show that any private island that wasn't Linden-owned didn't have tier payed; she can't show it because to my knowledge there simply is no precedent.

It's very unfortunate that after the SL Herald has lambasted other media organizations for not doing their research (http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2006/10/a_gallery_of_li.html) that its own reporters can't do basic research like talking to the subject of a story.

[Boliver Oddfellow]

I am flabbergasted at the lack of professionalism inherent in Pixeleen's article. As far as I know it is customary and ethically core standard practice for a reporter to fact check her stories before publishing them. I realize this is SL but RL journalistic ethics must apply. Pixeleen you should be ashamed of yourself for such badly done reportage. I know the Herald is a sensationalist tabloid and as such can be a fun and scandalous read but damn Pixeleen could you not find enough real muck to rake that you had to create such blatant badly done false muck-raking?

My suggestion to you is step up to the plate, apologize to Dell and to IVM, and for that matter all of the Heralds readers for doing such a sad job, and correctly state the facts:

1: Dell paid for their islands, Dell pays monthly tier

2: The Pyrrha Dell account was created as a special last name, and as such did not go through the normal channels and that’s why there is no payment info on file

Honestly Pixeleen I like your writing and enjoy reading your work, but you have sunk below the line on this one and I am deeply disappointed.

[nimrod yaffle]

Islands can have an owner, and a payer. They don't have to be the same person. Duh.

[Prokofy Neva]

Re: >Pixeleen, I'd like you to correct / retract this article because reaching out to my company for comments would have straightened out facts. You owe us and Dell an apology.

Because the Dell surname was custom ordered, it didn't go through the normal entrance process. Quandary solved.

Oh dear God, now Cross Crossed-Katana Hiro is working for Dell.

Why do some companies get a non-normal entry?

And does this mean that terrorists and mafias can just call up and get the last name they want and then skip having payment on file?

[Hiro Pendragon]

Prok, as usual, you conveniently forget things. That, or I can't tell if you are being really sarcastic and it's just not coming across on the Internet.

Lindens announced a while ago their new pricing plan for surnames. Pricing, as in, payment required. If you order a surname, obviously at some point money needed to be paid.

This story is such a non-event; you also have lambasted media for not doing research, Prok. You should practice what you preach. OMG Philip Linden doesn't have Payment Info On File! Conspiracy! *grins*

[Prokofy Neva]

I wonder if the only thing Pixeleen did wrong here was uncover the dirty little secret of Second Life, as Frans hints at as a practice, that metaversal consulting companies buy islands, not corporations. They then deed or turn them over to clients or rent them to clients. Why dirty? Because it shows that they are out on a limb, buying the real estate -- it's their island, and the companies are put on it if they win the contract. That masks the fact that the big corporations aren't doing it themselves, illustrating to us several things at once:

o corporations are dependent upon the sherpa companies -- that means much of their activity, impressions, even ownership is heavily shaped and influenced by a very select group of FIC types
o the media hype surrounding SL making it seem like all these big corporations are buying in SL is misleading; they are using sims purchased by sherpas, in fact, in some cases
o we can't know -- because they say its privileged and confidential financial and proprietary information (!) -- whether these corporations really have long-term presences in SL. Maybe they only long-term presence is the sherpas.

Of course, Pixeleen and the Herald editors will take whatever course they deem proper for this matter, if a mistake was made, but I know that Pixeleen was trying to get answers about this from the Lindens and didn't get them.

I see the usual suspects lining up here to perform executions at dawn, huffing and puffing about what they think are the standards of RL or even SL journalism and the need always to get the PR script from themselves. They place a terrible chill over the media around SL by demanding that nobody can ever do a story unless essentially they clear it with their PR offices, or personally interview them.

I don't see that it's an absolute requirement to always clear or get quotes from persons covered in the news. Of course it's a good journalistic practice and helps gain respect and credibilty and is always desirable. But the fact is, people are often offline for days. They often simply don't answer. If a story or issue is important to the public interest, it's sometimes important to get it out.

Pixeleen's story here doesn't make an statements of fact. While sarcastic, it doesn't make false claims. It raises questions. It repeatedly asks legitimate questions for which answers are still not really forthcoming.

The idea that unverified accounts can exist to mask the degree to which a corporate presence has obtained a hold in Second Life is worrisome. It means very powerful entities can hold sway over SL with anonymous avatars or dummy corporations.

[Prokofy Neva]

I know all about the last names, Hiro, they cost $150 for individuals, and $1500 for corporations. If purchased, then the account of that person has "payment on file" obviously. What these companies then do is order up 100 accounts that they can fill as needed for staff, etc. So...why aren't these flagged with "payment info on file"? It seems like a very misleading thing that is an oversight on the Lindens' part.

They should not be portraying big business as hiding behind unverified accounts. That is the point of this story, and it remains the point.

[Artemis Fate]

I can't believe Prokofy and friends are getting paranoid and screaming feted conspiracy over the way companies pay LL. Who cares if they have payment info on file, unless you're SO desperate for some conspiracy to point to Corporations that you'll just write about any scraps you come across.

Companies are using SL in a very different way, and are a very different kind of user, so naturally they pay differently. It's not like the company itself is going to have one first/last name, one credit card, one address, etc. to put on the "payment info on file" file.

Would you prefer they made some shit up so it said they had payment info like:

Name: Dill Dellington
Address: 3355 Dudeyouregettingadell Boulevard Delmar, Delaware

[Prokofy Neva]

Artemis, you'd be contrary even if I said "the sky is blue". I don't get why people who have payment on file aren't listed as having payment on file. End of story. It's a normal, ordinary, everyday point of transparency.

Obviously, Dell is Dell, and we know where they are, and they have a known, public address. But ABC Imports in the United Arab Emierates or XLY Finance in the Cayman Islands aren't going to be as obvious. I think the Lindens should be able to show that a company requesting a name has left some payment info of the same kind WE all have to leave on file.

[Hiro Pendragon]

>> I wonder if the only thing Pixeleen did wrong here was uncover the dirty little secret of Second Life, as Frans hints at as a practice, that metaversal consulting companies buy islands, not corporations.

Again, Prok, you're conveniently forgetting what's already been said. While some MDCs buy islands or provide land for corportations (Millions of Us making Wired, eSheep hosting MLB, IBM apparently with some of their clients, etc), corporations who are investing tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars in development of an island can certainly afford to buy their own, and they do.

But that's moot - what's really the difference? Whether a MDC is spending a few hundred a month, or a corporation, it's a pittance against the overall investment. On top of that, look at how the flat Internet works - some companies create and host their own sites, while others pay for development and for hosting. Both are valid ways of doing business. No big deal.

So there's no "dirty secret". At best, Pixeleen's found a bug, perhaps not. It certainly doesn't warrant the accusations and name-calling of this article.

>> I know all about the last names, Hiro, they cost $150 for individuals, and $1500 for corporations. If purchased, then the account of that person has "payment on file" obviously.

No, not obviously. What if a company were basically go to a MDC and say, "Here's the payment for the whole budget, please take care of the details." Then, as Frans pointed out, certainly they would not be on file. And who cares? Should a large company have to worry about paying $1500 for a name, when it's worrying about millions of dollars of revenue? No, it's part of the budget, it's often part of the MDC's responsibilities.

And that aside, you have to pay for the last name before you get it. Either it gets billed to another account, or it gets paid upfront. Either way, that doesn't mean the customized name account has to have billing info on file.

So, your basis for your thoughts is mistaken.

[Hiro Pendragon]

>> "I think the Lindens should be able to show that a company requesting a name has left some payment info of the same kind WE all have to leave on file."

Addendum - I would agree, but from another angle. Some people may not trust non-info avatars, and so if a company has paid to be in SL, whether it's directly or through an MDC, I agree it should mark them as Payment on File. That would be a service to the company.

[Prokofy Neva]

Of course there's a difference: we can see whether our world is inhabited by metaversal consulting agencies hyping themselves and their services, and providing temporary berths to big business, or whether big business itself is really here.

Whenever I see these corporations with the same old FIC names we know and hate from the LL forums days as the "Maintenance Group" for this or that big company, I have to wonder a) about the real impressions these corporations are getting; b) how much they are really here for the long term and c) how dependent are they on the whims of such agencies which might delete their stuff if they take a fit. We all know this can be done easily in SL -- and WAS done by some of these self-same individuals.

<"Here's the payment for the whole budget, please take care of the details." Then, as Frans pointed out, certainly they would not be on file.

Bingo. And that's the secret that Pixeleen has uncovered, more power to her. I've seen this, and seen it hinted at, but it's probably a bigger phenomenon than anyone is prepared to admit.

Basically, what it means is that we don't even have all these big businesses in Second Life. We just have the FIC. The same old little FIC that consists of a handful of beta testers, their friends, and their Lindens. It's the feta-verse, not the metaverse.

If you think this is just an administrative issue and a non-issue, you're part of the problem, Hiro, not part of the solution.

I'm all for big business, with its common sense, its need for the rule of law, it's above-the-board practices conditioned by its years of real-life conditions. Bring it. It's the perfect thing to blow up this teaparty and make it right.

[Prokofy Neva]

Like Uri always says, the truth always comes out in the comments.

The "MDCs" rule without accountability. You will never get me to believe that having Dell hire the likes of you, Hiro, with your long history of sucking up to LL and suppressing legitimate criticism and dissent, and even bullying people for asking questions about privileged resident accounts of people who are Linden staff as well, is going to be a good thing long-term for the reputation and position of that Dell or whatever company.

And I'm just not getting why -- if these MDCs (I prefer to call them Metaversal Myrmidons) have payment on file, then their customers, even if named "Dell," can't be called "verified".

But in fact, the Linden have a point, unwittingly. They aren't verified. You could be squiring in Osama bin Laden and whose to know?

[Urizenus]

I have to say I am getting less and less clear on what the issue is here. At first I thought it was that Dell didn't have to buy a premium account to get an island. We were told that that's because Dell bought a last name, which we are to take as being equivalent to buying a premium account for Linden Lab purposes. If that's the Linden policy, then case closed as long as it is consistently applied.

Now Prok seems to be raising a different issue. Prok, is the issue that you don't want big biz to have a surrogate presence? You want some officer at Dell to have their contact info on file? I dunno, some guy in accounting maybe?

I have to say, this issue is lost on me too. I don't see why anyone would care either way if Dell gave some money to a SL Dev comp and said, "take care of everything for us." That's what full service dev companies are for. Does it prevent Dell and the other big comps from getting the full-on SL experience? Learning to build and script, buying hawt skins, etc? Well, who cares? Obviously that isn't what they want and it's their money. They obviously think it is more cost effective to hire someone to do this than put their employees to work on SL dev projects.

[Artemis Fate]

"And I'm just not getting why -- if these MDCs (I prefer to call them Metaversal Myrmidons) have payment on file, then their customers, even if named "Dell," can't be called "verified".

But in fact, the Linden have a point, unwittingly. They aren't verified. You could be squiring in Osama bin Laden and whose to know?"

Thanks Prokofy, that gave me a really good laugh, the fact that you somehow, in your twisted conspiracy filled mind, managed to connect "not having payment info" in a silly little program online, to international terrorism and the 9/11 attacks.

You are surely a master of the insane conspiracy theory and hasty generalizations.

[TP]

I'd bet it's due to security issues. If an account were cracked with Dell financial information on it then the cracker could do alot of things like destroying property and buying selling $L with a corporate account type of credit card. I'm sure some people can imagine the types of things you could buy with a Dell sponsored credit card or what credit limits would be on one.

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, ok, TP, so it's ok for us peons to have to give our confidential *cough* personal information and risk cracking and theft but these big businesses get to use the human shields of the Metaversal Myrmidons.

I'm just not getting this. Eric Rice says we're not supposed to have different drinking fountains.

[Prokofy Neva]

Uri, what I've been trying to determine for some time, even before this article, is whether an island buyer even needs a premium account -- why pay that extra $9.95 a month and get 512 tier that he can't use on an island? So the person who buys only an island gets billed without having a premium account -- or so it seems. This concerns me because I'd like to know the number of non-premium island-owning accounts. This way, they're hidden. We can't see how many people own land in the private islands, only the number of islands bought.

But that's not what Hiro is saying -- he isn't saying all island buyers have this status he's saying only those that buy the $1500 last name.

And yes, Uri, I don't see that it's a good thing for big business to have a surrogate presence. I see a variety of problems with this:

o lack of knowledge of just how much big business has penetrated our world
o big business and its presence soley dependent on its surrogates, who control everything from their impressions of Second Life to their ability to return prims
o a layer of powerful prorabs who get to manage all the important projects, make sure their own are put into place in them, make sure their own friends' stores go on the venues, etc. I was right to attack the problem of monopolies of inworld FIC businesses back in April 2005 (my last post before between permabanned), because it has led to this.

Uri, you're just not thinking this through. It's all about accountability, transparency, and visibility of what is happening in our world. Four or six of these agencies are controlling the ENTIRE big business thing in SL with the exception possibly of IBM, which seems to be big enough and clever enough to have their own people do the building and such.

All the rest become utterly dependent in every way on these sherpas. You think it's just an administrative issue? Of course not.

They bear responsibility for not correcting misperceptions about "firsts".

They bear responsibility for not correcting their clients' misbliefs about "the numbers".

They bear responsibility for making sure that only a very tiny grouplet of agencies get all the jobs, and dole out any sub-contracts on sufferance only to the loyal.

Why do you, who was so ready with the word "fucktard," accept a situation where ESC, MOU, RRR, IV, RRR etc get to stream impressions -- both big business impressions of SL in one direction, and SL's impression of big business in the other?

These sherpas are greedy not only for financial benefit but for political control of the world: they want to control the very features of the world and the pipeline to the Lindens. And they've gotten that all nailed down -- long ago -- and the thing they'd fear the most is to have any of these clients get their own pipelines to the Lindens.

This suits the Lindens, to have this class of supervisors serve as a buffer, for a variety of reasons:

o take the blame if it doesn't work out
o retain plausible deniability that LL isn't selling out to big business
o serve as a shelter for the Lindesidents to work on their resident accounts and earn money so it doesn't look too blatantly like actual Lindens got payoffs
o control big businesses natural curiosity and natural incredulousness about poor performance of SL and various SL "mysteries" by having them constantly guide, distract, filter.

It's obvious landowners and content-creators who created the world for people to inhabit are expendable -- everything they do and have is rendered null and void in value when the entire SL software is open-sourced and anyone can roll out land or copy content. By that time, the sheraps and their big businesses will be poised either to get the first licensed use of the software or be the first developers of open-sourced software and provide events and servers not reliant on the value of land or user-created content.

It's like Lenin selling the rope to the capitalists to hang themselves with.

[Boliver Oddfellow]

Frankly I am growing tired of this entire line of discussion, as its turned into a Prok tirade, however I do want to clear up a few points;

1: Dell paid for its 4 islands directly not through us
2: They pay their tier to LL directly not through us

Therefore all these alligation by Prok of coverups and hiding behind MDCs just don't hold water.

That said, Prok, the name of our company is Infinite Vision Media, which is shorthanded to IVM not IV, damn it Prok if you are going to lambast us yet again at least get it right.

[Quirky]

I was going to and probably should stay out of this, but all of this blogosphere sophistry is missing an important point. Your reporter got this dead WRONG.

What's the Herald's policy on correcting errors?

You can talk till the cows come home about how Pix has flagged some minor LL bookkeeping issue here, but the fact of the matter is, the headline point-blank calls Dell "deadbeat" -- which they certainly are not -- and the company that brought Dell inworld has been explaining for 24 hours now that Dell DOES pay tier costs.

We're not talking about allowing someone to have an OPINION here. We're talking about slipshod reporting that is perpetrating inaccurate information that could damage our client.

At what stage does the Herald just pull such blatantly incorrect information? What is the standard, please? How "wrong" does it have to be before it goes away?

[Hiro Pendragon]

>> "Of course there's a difference: we can see whether our world is inhabited by metaversal consulting agencies hyping themselves and their services, and providing temporary berths to big business, or whether big business itself is really here."

Okay, so, let me get this straight. Which avatar has payment info on file determine's a company's resolve more than:
- a set of fully developed islands
- the Dell.com homepage adding a Second Life front page option
- events run in SL
- executives from a company speaking in SL

Is that right? Clearly, despite your distrust of Linden Lab, you believe what appears on a profile more than all of these things. *shakes head in incomprehension*

(I said) > Bingo. And that's the secret that Pixeleen has uncovered, more power to her. I've seen this, and seen it hinted at, but it's probably a bigger phenomenon than anyone is prepared to admit.

What ... secret? Is this is a secret? If it is, that's news to us. Is it a secret to another Metaverse Development Company? If so, which one? Sheep? Millions? Rivers?

This isn't a secret, and it's *not* at all what Pixeleen was talking about. Pixeleen accused Dell of outright not paying Linden Lab. Whether it's through a proxy or directly, that doesn't much matter. Using Pixeleen's analogy of "deadbeat [dads]", they are allowed to pay through a proxy of the court system. Does that mean that they don't pay.

But that's besides the point with Dell's case even still, because I haven't confirmed that Dell even does that. I'm not allowed to disclose whether they do or not, but I can say that we have both clients that directly pay and those that don't. The same is true for other MDCs, as I mentioned before. There simply is no big deal.

>> Basically, what it means is that we don't even have all these big businesses in Second Life. We just have the FIC. The same old little FIC that consists of a handful of beta testers, their friends, and their Lindens. It's the feta-verse, not the metaverse.

I'd love for you to define what "big businesses [being] in Second Life" is, if it's not what it is now. I go back to my analogy to the flat Internet - plenty of companies are "on" the Internet, but don't necessarily have web development teams or host their own sites. It doesn't make them any less on the Internet than the ones who do. You're wrong.

>> If you think this is just an administrative issue and a non-issue, you're part of the problem, Hiro, not part of the solution.

mmmm fallacy of false dichotomy ... less rhetoric, more logic, please!
Here, this may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

>> I'm all for big business, with its common sense, its need for the rule of law, it's above-the-board practices conditioned by its years of real-life conditions. Bring it. It's the perfect thing to blow up this teaparty and make it right.

So walk the walk, Prok. You're a land developer. You can build. You claim to know all the answers. I haven't seen you aid one single company into SL.

[Bluesapphire]

OMG! Hiro is so not FIC. He's *BIG* business, a *BIG* BUSINESS MAN. Hiro is only an agency, the deal Dell has could be swapped into a lot of agencies.

You just have to look at the Alienware (a Dell company) Island recently purchased, Hiro is that yours? Also, the Dell Training islands, correct me if i'm wrong, I believe those are another virtual world agency?

Dell will have a seperate deal to handle payment, lets face it, wouldn't you want to have the keys to your own front door? The FIC is not these peons, these small virtual world agencies are so 2006. The new FIC is the corporates and the deals they have done with Linden Lab.

Also, I'm sure the Dell Corporation must really endorse seeing their agency getting involved in public fist fight.

Hiro you've had a problem with Prok for years, shame you feel the need to score points on him via your lame (IMHO) DELL build.

You're a bully and a fool. I can now finally see why the SLCC board kicked you into touch.

I have cc'd this thread over the PR team at DELL, I'm sure they will be interested!

[Prokofy Neva]

Boliver, don't be silly. If they paid for tier directly, why, they'd have "payment info on file" on their profile. But they don't.

And I didn't single out your company or client here; I said that in general, this concept of having the metaversal consulting groups pay for everything disguises the presence of big business -- and indeed it does -- and I outlined the ways in which this is so. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the case -- people wouldn't stand for it in RL; why should they in SL???

Yes, absolutely, Hiro -- I don't care what kind of footprint, collection of islands, inworld hypervents, or what-the-hell, if it is all handled blind, with a front company running everything, I certainly do raise issues about it. And I've outlined them -- too much dependency on you guys by these neophyte big businesses; too much funnelling of information and impressions; too much political aggrandizement for you all in terms of serving as a powerful lobby on LL and getting the features you want and getting your way.

You're being completely, utterly, ridiculously literalist here about the "payment information on file here". And indeed, by reacting to Pixeleen's humorous article by falling on the Herald like a ton of bricks, you've highlighted way more attention to this issue than it would have evern gotten. My point here isn't about the literal information about the "verified" -- my point is what that is a *signifier of*. If a fancy exec logs on with "no payment info on file" and an island owned by "maintenance group" that has you all in it, we can all see that this company is completely controlled by you. They can't even remove griefing prims. They're utterly dependent on you. I should think they'd get a clue and broaden their horizons literally.

And it's a signifier of how their sojourn may be short -- we can't know. And how they may merely be your temporary clients -- and it almost doesn't matter whether they stay or not as long as you get more clients to keep that tier filled.

The secret is that big business in Second Life has been ushered in by a tiny handful of companies that have utterly controlled the experience. They've charged rates that many find questionable; they've grabbed the political reins and the power to influence features; and they are encouraging things like libsecondlife just to get the features they need while remaining indifferent or obvlious to how something like libsecondlife rides roughshod over other people. I don't expect you to see these obvious facts. But it's not rocket science and not a conspiracy.

Companies on the Internet *do* have their own web development teams. And they don't rely on the same 5 companies for everything all over the Internet. They didn't even rely on such companies even in the early years of the Internet. Basically, you all have created a scarcity -- knowledge of how to build and develop and island -- and supplied yourself as the fulfillers of the need, and you have a vested interest in not having the word get out that it might all be done cheaper -- and even better.

Those no false dilemma here, Hiro; there's just you, aggressively grabbing influence back in the early days of the platform and especially lording it over the forums and making sure anyone who crossed you and your friends got banned; grabbing the Lindens into development groups, etc. etc. Do you honestly think people will just roll over for this?

I don't understand why I have to be aiding companies. That's not what I do, nor do I aspire to do. Why would my critique be judged by whether or not I personally can terraform and build out an island for some company? I have an inworld business serving people who in the immersionist world of SL pretty much, with some who are using SL as an art or business platform. I rent properties and try to make communities look good, but most of the building is done by contracted builders or the residents themselves. I fail to see how I have to go out and *be a sherpa* in order to make the valid point: the sherpas rule SL now and get what they want.

[Prokofy Neva]

In fact, Hiro was FIC when you were not even a gleam in Philip Linden's eye, bluesapphire lol. He was FIC before he was SIC and before he was MM.

If Dell has spread their business around several of these sherpa agencies -- more power to them! That is a VERY smart move. But aren't hearing that from Hiro or IMVU, are we? I mean, IAM. Um, what is its name again?

What are the deals that have been done directly with LL? Do we see any? The only thing that remotely sounds like a "deal" is this rumoured special siting of IBM servers in LL's colo -- but that isn't confirmed, and it seems wierd.

Yes, I would imagine that these big companies would not like seeing their names dragged into all these petty and parochial fist-fights.

But who is to blame for this? It's not the Herald, or me or anyone. They have only themeselves to blame for having spit in the well and now having to drink from it. They bullied and savaged people for years inside SL on the forums, and in various events and groups, and now they reap what they so. In fact, one of the big reasons the Lindens probably closed the forums is that they realized that people would focus even more on their pets as they became even more famous and questioned even more about them.

Honestly, I've never had a problem with big business coming into SL as some kind of abstract or concrete reality. If anything they signify that SL is taken seriously and that's a good sign for any of us who have invested time and money into the platform. If they bring in more customers or more investment, that might be a tide that raises all boats.

But what's been so unpleasant about it is that these same really unpleasant individuals who have lorded it over us on the forums or around SLCC are at the center of this whirlwind, and as I said, funnelling, controlling the story, the impressions, the media. They never conveyed the message that I think the inworlders would have most liked to have stuck: that these companies weren't the "first". And perhaps that's because they were driven to feed their clients' egos -- or else where fairly new themselves at SL.

[Artemis Fate]

"But what's been so unpleasant about it is that these same really unpleasant individuals who have lorded it over us on the forums or around SLCC are at the center of this whirlwind, and as I said, funnelling, controlling the story, the impressions, the media. They never conveyed the message that I think the inworlders would have most liked to have stuck: that these companies weren't the "first". And perhaps that's because they were driven to feed their clients' egos -- or else where fairly new themselves at SL."

Well certainly there's nothing stopping anyone from starting their own little company to get contracts, it's been done a few times obviously since all of these companies didn't start off at the same time. Past that, it's just talent with the tools given and being able to sell that talent. Certainly you could take contracts too, but you don't have talent with the tools and have infact been apprehensive if not violent to learning and towards those who have learnt.

I can't believe you're still stuck on them announcing first stuff as some sort of unforgivable act. They tried to pull a PR event on hastily researched "facts" and they got called on it, end of story. If you're one to get so enraged by egos, you may want to take an introspective look at your own and what you write.

oh wait sorry, you're the freedom fighter battling for truth and justice even if everyone else is too stupid to understand what you do for them, but as soon as you take down those vague entities of your own creation order will come to the world and you'll be praised a hero.

hmmm is that egomaniacal?

[Bluesapphire]

Prokofy,

I don't know you, I sometimes like what you say, other times your passion spills into being over zealous. I do though respect your stance, your role and relevance is essential in a community like Second Life.

As for these companies using Second Life, I think we're now in an era of a two way world: one for the consumers, the other for the commercial. The solution for all this, Linden Lab should make a declaration, split these two different worlds into two piles. One that allows everyone to know where they stand. The confusion is from a lack of clarity.

As for Hiro and his cohorts, the solution is easy. They should of just not replied to the Herald. I work in PR, most clients have a strict no comment policy from their agencies. This is done for three reasons:

1) Preserve a consistent message and voice.
2) To stop agencies shooting themselves in the foot and making them, plus the client look like idiots.
3) Overstating relevance as a supplier; use the client to leverage their own market position

As you can see, point 2 and 3 are incredibly poignant.

I would be surprised if Dell hasn't payed their own way, controlling payment etc. Most of these companies probably don't have a years trading account. I would think the builds are done on a completion level before payment, or at the very least a % up front to fund these smaller companies cashflow.

I have been looking into the other *BIG* agencies, its surprising, three of them have a lot of money behind them. I would imagine that this indicates investment etc. I know that RRR just opened an office in San Francisco, I work quite close to the location, so I popped to have a nose around. It's impressive, I understand their London office is equally as 'media wow factor'. If I'm not mistaken, MoU and eSheep are also 'angel money' funded? All of them seem to employ a lot of people. I also noticed over on Terranova that Cory is predicting RRR and eSheep will probably have 100+ employees. Does this indicate a possible merger or buyout?

The question is in a time of demand, companies will deal with just about anyone. As we've seen recently with the amount of companies coming into Second Life, this is all short term though, it will soon sort itself out.

As for Linden Lab, I don't think their is a conspiracy, I think they're too busy for that kinda political nonsense. This is not the same Linden Lab from 2004/05. Second Life is a totally different world now.

Second Life has space for everyone, it needs to grow up, the confusion seems to be not the companies saying 'FIRST TO MARKET', more the longer term residences overstating their own importance of 'HEY, I WAS HERE FIRST!'.

The ones who are less mature and rant in these type of forums are always the first to be shaken out.

Oh and btw, this also says a lot. At the SLCC, Hiro couldn't avert his eyes away from my tits the whole time I spoke to him - euch!

[Hiro Pendragon]

Blue:

1. I have a sneaky suspicion of who you are, despite your anonymity on this blog and others where you've left comments.

2.

>> "As for these companies using Second Life, I think we're now in an era of a two way world: one for the consumers, the other for the commercial."

The flat Internet has both commercial and "consumer" aspects. I think "social" might be a better word than "consumer", in this case. However, the flat Internet doesn't have any barriers to separate the two; it lets users determine whatever content they want to link to. I believe Second Life should be the same way. I think Prok assumes that the two have to be intermingled, and you're assuming they have to be separated. Instead, I think it'll be a hybrid of both, depending on the individual user's desires on where to explore and what options to excersize in their own land. If there are tools needed to better accommodate both types of content, then by all means, it should happen. I don't think any formal declaration is needed, as you said, "Second Life has space for everyone", and I think that includes the gray-areas that are both commercial and social (consumer).

3. "Oh and btw, this also says a lot. ... "

LOL!

I don't want to speak poorly of your observational skills, but I'm afraid I should point out the following fact:

Everyone was wearing ID tags on their chests with who they were and a picture of an avatar. Consequently, everyone was staring at everyone's tags and going, "Oh my god! It's (so-and-so)! So cool to meet you!"

So, I can see how you might confuse that, and I apologize if the wrong impression was given, but that's the way it was. (and at 2005's SLCC as well) It's funny, because I distinctly remember joking with people that's what it probably looked like.

[Frans Charming]

Somehow i feel like i kicked a pebble and caused avalange.
Damn chaos theory.

[Prokofy Neva]

I think the fake firsts is an important thing to emphasize as a really bad faux pas on the part of these companies, and given just HOW dependent they have been on the sherpas, as we've come to see, we really need to ask these sherpas why they weren't better guides. I mean, did AA claim to be the first apparels company? Aimee built their store, and Aimee herself could have said *she* was the first big apparels company. Did she? Or did she forego that to massage the client's ego? I have no idea how these things work.

I don't need to "take anything down" or "fight for justice" for other people so as to "come to power as the hero of justice". this is one of those silly Jauani Wu concepts. I fight for justice because it's right. I don't need to come to power. I want to live in a world where there *is* justice, a level playing field, and an open society. That's all.

Blue, I agree that the professional thing to do when some two-bit tabloid is dragging you through the mud is not to respond : )

They always exacerbate it and bring way more attention to something that was meant as a light gag, meant to make people think a bit, and would have disappeared below the fold and been used to wrap pixel fish by the next morning.

You imagine that you can take these young puppy marketers and paper-train them, Blue. That they will realize that they are shooting themselves and their clients in the foot by having these contests to see who can wet on the carpet more. But they believe they are at the top of the heap, the core, the center, the apex of action, and they are supremely arrogant. One can only say, pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction.

Sheep was founded by Sibley who had created and sold his own company before, and used his own investment money. I haven't heard that they attracted other investors. MOU was founded by Reuben Steiger, who leveraged his position as a former Linden, but I don't see that he had investors unless these are all silent partners. I think both of them just lucked out in being at the right place at the right time and having the skills to take advantage of the biggest windfall of the century at the dawning of the metaverse. Both of them (and others like RRR) paid their dues in terms of sitting on laggy sims and pushing prims and enduring the vicissitudes of Second Life for some years. RRR was the first RL company to use LL and took a lot of shit for it.

My problem isn't THAT they exist; they SHOULD exist and it's a great way to kickstart and assist the ushering in of Big Business. My problem is that they are not content merely to exist and serve their customers and get rich doing what they do, with their incredible skills.

My problem with them has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been, since 2004 when I first encountered them, is that they TRY TO GRAB POLITICAL POWER TOO. In RL, societies that have businesses close to the government that grab political power or are dummy corporations for political power always fail and do not stabilize. Business needs to be regulated and socially responsible. What I'm calling for is the rule of law, not socialist leveling or heavy taxation.

That's why when the Lindens give them all a heads up to buy the cheap islands and we don't get the same notice, I scream. That's when I see them and the Lindens all buzzing about how they need to just take down SEARCH and TRAFFIC as they are "broken," I scream -- they are harming our sales inworld -- because their sales don't depend on SEARCH working. SEARCH has now been deeply fucked -- and they sneer at it or don't care or say, oh, I'm nominally for keeping traffic and search but hey, wink wink, I'm making a new HUD device that will blow all this out of the water as a proprietary thing for my customers.

See what I mean? It's grabbing the feature set and the economic advantage as a form of political power.

As for the problem of tits, well, some men are like that. It's a habit they will never break. It's a good social marker for character, I guess, especially if they try to disguise that habit with some fake story about looking at ID badges ROFL.

Hiro, the 'flat Internet' doesn't have a tiny subset of myrmidons who control the experience for everyone else. Any comparison to the Internet is utterly facile. There aren't 5 development companies for the whole of the Internet. There's no one on the Internet who dreams up an Internet feature that also harms GOOGLE SEARCH or some sort of feature set that would make my little webpage be disadvantaged any more than Amazon.com These facile comparisons to the Internet make me spit -- it's the biggest lie you all get up to. You are not the Internet. You are a country club. The reforms and changes I and other suggest so that you stop being privileged and inworld business stops being harmed is actually more "the Internet" than anything you come up with.

[Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer]

I know how Dell pays!!!

They give LL lollipops.

[mam glands]

mmmmm....proks tits..drooool...ahem, sorry old girl, I was just checking out your press credentials.

What was that you were saying now?
I could'nt really hear THROUGH ALL THE FUCKING SPITTLE AND INVECTIVE AND WOULD YOU FUCKING MIND KEEPING YOUR RESPONSES LESS THAN 1000 FUCKING WORDS YOU ARROGANT FUCKTARD NASTY OLD EGOTISTICAL BIATCH?

why ty!

[Pointing Out]

"I think the fake firsts is an important thing to emphasize as a really bad faux pas on the part of these companies" - Prok

if you refer to the fake firsts article, uri himself pointed out that it was the medias lax job on researching and -not- the companies actually touting the firsts

[Prokofy Neva]

A response to 2-3 people that is 898 words by the count seems completely tolerable. I have to laugh at your notion of vitriol, which appears to be something you senselessly practice without any self-reflection.

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't think the media, which is new to SL, is only to blame; the sherpas were involved in bringing this media in, and didn't bother to disabuse their clients about the firsts issues.

[Lorelei Patel]

Where's the story?

So, for sake of imagination, let's say my company wants an SL presence, and they want me to be actively in charge of it. Great. So, they contact SL, do whatever they have to do to set up an island/islands and pay for them. Who is paying? Is it me, the lowly grunt, who pays out of pocket? Or is it the corporate office?

As an hourly schmo, I'm sure not going to be paying tier out of my own bank account. The company is going to pay the way.

So, naturally, the company's payment info would not be the same as mine.

Seriously, what's the debate?

Pixeleen, did you ever try to contact Pyrrha or anyone at Dell about this?

[Artemis Fate]

It's not the development company's jobs to inform their clients (and media for the clients) all the little details of Second Life. They're not Sherpas as you hastily deduced, they're builders. The client wants something built, they build it, end of story. Only time Second Life comes into play is when they tell them the limitations and how something the client wants can't be done, and what the next best thing based on second life limitations is.

As normal, you have a severe misunderstanding of how these things work Prokofy, and as normal as well, you have no interest in gaining an understanding, only propogating your flawed beliefs as truth as loudly as possible.

[Inigo Chamerberlin]

-sigh-

SL is falling into a deadly spiral of broken functionality and this is the best you can come up with?
A splendid exhibition of sense of humour failure?

Screw 'em all Pix, if they can't take a joke.

[Prokofy Neva]

Sherpas build base camps, Artemis. Have you never studied their role around Mount Everest, for example? Of course they build for gentlemen explorers. That's what they do!

I see you're a member of Electric Sheep Company. Are you on the payroll?

And I fail to see why Hiro Pendragon's company's should serve as a mask to big business. They are incapable of getting their own big corporate accounts? They spend $1500 on a last name and they have to have little Hiro squire them around? Why? Is there something not...permanent...something very temporary about what they are doing?

Oh, I understand only too well what this is about, Artemis. It doesn't take rocket science to grasp the point you think we're not getting, that yes, duh, big companies just hand these little metaversal agents $25,000 and say "buy me a presence in SL, send me the itemized bill, we'll let you take care of it".
Sure, it's done like that all the time in RL *when you are paying a marketing firm to run one ad campaign, or paying an agency for a booth in a trade fair*. But...would you pay a marketing agency to open up a branch office in a city or country for a year?

Why should these metaversal ad companies get to exploit the ignorance and reluctance to get into the weeds of these big corporations to a) mask their presence and their level of commitment b) funnel impressions to them c) drag them into local disputes?

[Prokofy Neva]

Sherpas build base camps, Artemis. Have you never studied their role around Mount Everest, for example? Of course they build for gentlemen explorers. That's what they do!

I see you're a member of Electric Sheep Company. Are you on the payroll?

And I fail to see why Hiro Pendragon's company's should serve as a mask to big business. They are incapable of getting their own big corporate accounts? They spend $1500 on a last name and they have to have little Hiro squire them around? Why? Is there something not...permanent...something very temporary about what they are doing?

Oh, I understand only too well what this is about, Artemis. It doesn't take rocket science to grasp the point you think we're not getting, that yes, duh, big companies just hand these little metaversal agents $25,000 and say "buy me a presence in SL, send me the itemized bill, we'll let you take care of it".
Sure, it's done like that all the time in RL *when you are paying a marketing firm to run one ad campaign, or paying an agency for a booth in a trade fair*. But...would you pay a marketing agency to open up a branch office in a city or country for a year?

Why should these metaversal ad companies get to exploit the ignorance and reluctance to get into the weeds of these big corporations to a) mask their presence and their level of commitment b) funnel impressions to them c) drag them into local disputes?

[Just a thought]

This is the way it is done. Get. Over. It.

That or find yourself a nice, clean, Utopia where nothing ever goes wrong, everyone is happy, companies don't take advantage of people.....

Oh wait - that place does not and will never exist.

[Pyrrha Dell aka Laura Thomas]

Hi there. I am Laura Thomas, the Dell employee known as Pyrrha Dell in Second Life. While not fully understanding why it is so important, I am aware of the initial interest in and comments from everyone on the fact that I do not have payment information on file.

Rest assured we at Dell have invested time and money to develop our presence in Second Life, and did so with the intention of embracing the existing community. That's one reason we selected IVM as our "sherpa". That, and their personal passion for what Dell could be in Second Life. It's a passion you can sense in their responses to this posting.

I worked directly with Linden Labs, however, for the opening of our account, the purchase of our islands and the Dell surname. As a large company, we do business with literally thousands of other companies, too. We don't go into all the details of such relationships – if we did with one, then hundreds of others would follow.

Our commitment to Second Life is just beginning. We look forward to expanding Dell Island and becoming a better resident to all who participate in Second Life.

Thanks again for the interest.

[Chavo Polonsky]

What's a "myrmidon"?

[mam glands]

*settles back to see how Prok twists Pyrrha's response into an Al Queero ego promoting spittlefest*

[Prokofy Neva]

>I worked directly with Linden Labs, however, for the opening of our account, the purchase of our islands and the Dell surname. As a large company, we do business with literally thousands of other companies, too. We don't go into all the details of such relationships – if we did with one, then hundreds of others would follow.

Yes, this is what I was afraid of -- some kind of special, that the rest of us didn't get, despite our hard work.

I notice Dell has 4 islands. I have about 14 island's worth of sims. My traffic is 10 times what yours on, even on my humble rental towers, and salsa dance joints and malls.

Of course, I'm not Dell. I'm just an individual. Still, I wonder why I couldn't get my company's name for having even more sims -- and not have to pay this outrageous $1500 fee -- btw, did you pay that? That seems like a helluva fee for what you get. What *did* you pay? Did you get a discount?

Regarding your sherpas, yes, last year on the forums, Boliver told us proudly that he never buys or cashes out Lindens. He never has to. Because he doesn't really live in this world. He's a consultant getting paid by his clients like you. So how much can he know what it's really like to live and work in this world, and suffer all its difficulties, but still run a profitable business?

While we are all here talking about Dell, I thought I'd compliment Sukhran Fahid on his amazing build (CJ Carnot is also represented in the builds there). Somehow, Sukhran never gets mentioned when Boliver and Hiro elbow to the front, but he is largely responsible for the beautiful look and feel of this build. Check it out everybody, it's great, it's very futuristic but done very cleanly.

And while it's an amazing place, just a bit of feedback, since we're all here chatting.

I figured the whole point of Dell would be to serve as a kind of 3-d interactive space where I could come into SL and find a Dell computer, something I might actually do. But it took me 45 minutes to find the place to do that. That's because when you land, there's all kinds of cul-de-sacs and side-alleys that lead into things like tutorials on how to use SL itself, or a conference center, or whatever, without a clear sign that says 'BUILD AND ORDER YOUR DELL HERE" with a sign that really teleports by right-clicking. That's got to go front and center.

I finally after endlessly bumping into stuff and clicking got on to that white pod thing and finally got on the factory floor and figured out how to seat myself and begin configuring my ideal Dell. But I became confused because there were no PICTURES like there are on the Internet webpages. Please, PICTURES are what you need. To be sure, they will cost you $10 per upload, but I think with all your savings on the deal with LL, you could go the $10 per.

There was only that clunk drop-down blue screen saying "Hiro Pendragon's Dell Configurator" -- I mean, did we really have to have Hiro's branding exercise right in our face? I came for Dell, not Hiro Pendragon.

SO I get like 10 lines of complex-looking bright text and I struggle to imagine what it is looking like without peeking just yet at the web page. Finally I finish and I click to get the SL facsimile which comes out on a conveyor belt -- but which isn't visible there in front of me at the work station. Seems to me you need a kind of holovendor thing that renders the customized item there on the scene in 3-D like holovendors do.

The souvenir and news stores also had nothing clickable and copyable so were frustrating. Maybe it's still under construction? Why not a few of those computer facsimiles that are up on the floor, and have that teddy bear robot thingie copyable or sellable?

Geeks and tekkie wikinistas always tell you that Dell is for chumps, it's not cool, it's never something the cool people ever buy, as it involves buying online and not at their favourite RL geekie store and it's sort of middle-of-the-road. But I'm undeterred, I fear not, Dell looks good enough for me, and happy to keep shopping at the Dell island to see if in fact there might be a bargain or something that works for me in the4 $650 desktop range.

And what I'd highly recommend is a way to illustrate the idea computer for SL, that matches all the specs and is a proven winner to running SL perfectly. Don't be afraid to make a package that actually sells the SL computer.

well, that's all for now, Pyrra, see you in the Metaverse,

Prokofy

[Artemis Fate]

You know Prok, it's funny for a guy who claims to be hyper capitalist, and absolutely loathe communists, you hate development companies and corporations making profit off of capitalism, and spit out quotes like this:

"Yes, this is what I was afraid of -- some kind of special, that the rest of us didn't get, despite our hard work."

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't understand what is capitalist about insider deals. Sounds more like chaibolism or oligarchism of the sort that socialist or transition-from-socialism countries have. Capitalism isn't about having some companies get special deals and others be left out in the cold. It's not making a profit that offends me at all. It's getting coddled and subsidized so that you don't have the same conditions of those making a profit under far more harsh settings. It's not at all capitalism I object to; it's socialism of this sort.

[Artemis Fate]

That's exactly capitalism. Linden Labs gets a benefit for real life companies coming because they can use it for advertising, real life companies want it for the same reason, as well as they intend to buy a lot of sims and LL wants to sell them. So they make deals to give incentive (a very important word with capitalism) for them to come and do it. It's why they have bulk deals for most products if you contact the company and haggle.

What you're talking about, everyone getting these bonuses whether they benefit LL personally or not, is socialism.

[mam glands]

"But I'm undeterred, I fear not, Dell looks good enough for me, and happy to keep shopping at the Dell island to see if in fact there might be a bargain or something that works for me in the4 $650 desktop range."

my god...I don't believe it. Now we come to the crunch...prok arselicking her way to a "special deal". How's that work prok?
They give you a "special deal" and suddenly you'll start writing nice things about dell? Is that really what it's all about? I guess so...

[Chavo Polonsky]

I, too, visited Dell Island, and had better luck than Prok here. Granted, I made a series of lucky guesses--I guessed that, if I wanted to build a Dell Computer, I might want to try the place called "Dell Factory."

After struggling not a bit to get myself seated (hint to Prok: right-click; select "Sit"), I looked at the PICTURE of the computer I thought was prettiest (Prok, maybe your graphics card is on the fritz) and configured away.

I understand our Prok has to make like he's struggling to find something good to say all the time, but his take on Dell Island seemed a bit ... well, disingenuous, even for Prok. I mean, come on: "I became confused because there were no pictures." He CAN'T be serious. He's read that book about Myrmidons. I have a copy of that book, and it's big and fat and doesn't have a single picture anywhere in it. I know, because that's -exactly- why I'VE never read it.

[Prokofy Neva]

No, I don't need any sort of special deal. I don't see that special deals are warranted. And I'm not asking for any "bonus". In fact, what I find hilarious is that the concept of bulk purchases and incentives for those with 10 sims' tier (get the 10th free i.e. with the 10 percent group bonus) is one that is constantly being attacked and harried by the FIC for all kinds of pretentious reasons that mainly have to do with people on islands wanting even more of an unfair advantage.

If the discount was an obvious one like that: "buy 10, get one free" then I could see it. But this way, what it given, and what is got, remains "confidential," and is part of making an unaccountable world.

I went to the island, I made my honest critique, pluses and minuses.

Well, there aren't pictures. They have pictures on their website. They can have them here. It's a must.

Um, gosh, I figured that "Dell Factory" would be the place where there'd --wow! -- be computers to assemble. But you don't instantly find it. And even when you get there, it's not clear that there are desks to sit at -- they seem like pure props at first. The big desks block them. And duh, I know how to sit on a chair after 2 years, but the problem is again, this giant desk that looms up, and when you click on it, gives Hiro's branded objects which gives you numbers to chose from like 1-4 but it's not clear where the list of 1-4 is such as to pick it.

SL is laggy and crappy. I have all the right video cards, I saw no picture whatsoever. Just a giant blue desk.

Honestly, they need to make the signage more clear and the traffic flow to the point of sale much, much more intuitive and easy. That's a given.

[Hiro Pendragon]

I just wanted to say briefly that I was impressed with Pixeleen's ultimate response, and should she do take Pyrrha Dell out shopping, I expect a report!

[Just a thought]

Prok, since you seem to have missed it I will copy it down here, with this addition: Linden Lab is a company, not a government - Second Life is a Program, not a World.\

When it comes to companies, this is the way it is done. Get. Over. It.

That or find yourself a nice, clean, Utopia where nothing ever goes wrong, everyone is happy, companies don't take advantage of people.....

Oh wait - that place does not and will never exist.

[Tang Lightcloud]

Just A thought: "Linden Lab is a company, not a government - Second Life is a Program, not a World. Get. Over. It.
That or find yourself a nice, clean, Utopia where nothing ever goes wrong, everyone is happy, companies don't take advantage of people..... "

I recommend to put an end to the Prok rantings and conspiracies once and for all, that everyone copy the above quote. Then each and every post it makes - this will be everyones standard response. If we multiply this quote by the thousands in all her blogs and posts --- maybe just maybe it will finally sink in and it will realize its been living in an alternate dimension - and hopefully just STFU.

Ok everyone cut and paste-let the the brain washing begin.

[Prokofy Neva]

I've actually run organizations and worked with companies for decades. And...do you have a job, Justa? Or are you just talking through your ass in your mom's basement again?

There's now "this is how it's done" when it comes to something that is different and revolutionary. In fact, it's a good time to break the old molds and chains.

But in fact, your notions of "this is how it is done" are painfully juvenile and rigidly orthodox. It's not done this way in RL -- and I should know, having lived real life probably three times as long as you have with far more rich experience. That's the problem with you creatures who live on the Internet.

I don't need any "clean utopia" -- but I sure as hell will fight for a just world. That's just normal stuff. That's the sort of thing my generation and even the next generation did routinely. I don't know why you lamerz can't grasp that freedom has to be fought for, it's not handed on a silver platter. You exploit the achievements of those who have gone before you.

[Prokofy Neva]

>I recommend to put an end to the Prok rantings and conspiracies once and for all, that everyone copy the above quote. Then each and every post it makes - this will be everyones standard response. If we multiply this quote by the thousands in all her blogs and posts --- maybe just maybe it will finally sink in and it will realize its been living in an alternate dimension - and hopefully just STFU.

Um, I think the person guilty of wishing for a "nice, clean, utopia" is you, Tang. My God, can't you see the fascism? Trying to wipe out other people's freedom of expression? Trying to silence protests -- legitimate commentary? Even if it *was* a conspiracy rant, which it isn't, why would shouting and trying to deafen or silence someone like that be right? Of course it isn't. Indeed, only those looking for a "nice, clean, utopia" where they never have to hear an opinion contrary to theirs would even dream of such a fascistic notion as stalking someone around to every post and pasting some rigidly fascistic notion on to their comments.

Second Life is all about creating alternate dimensions for many people. Get used to it, and get over yourself.

[Chavo Polonsky]

Prok, regarding your allegation of special treatment, isn't this sort of like a wholesale/retail situation? You basically paid retail prices for your land--scattered around many mainland sims, already in existence. Whereas Dell purchased their land wholesale, or at cost even, direct from the manufacturer, as it were. There does not seem to be any special treatment involved.

If I purchase a computer from Dell in the real world, I do not demand accountability from Dell with respect to their dealings with their corporate clients. I assume there are separate rules for dealing with corporate purchasers than there are for dealing with individuals. I assume the same with SL and Linden Labs. I'm not sure I understand why you think LL should make their dealings with Dell more "transparent." This isn't an issue of in-world justice, it's an issue of real-world business.

I agree that the SL viewer is laggy. I seem to be having better luck with the First Look viewer, at least for simply traveling around and exploring. The lagginess might account for the fact that you didn't see the pictures of the computers on the buttons on Hiro's drafting table. I apologize for the, perhaps, unnecessary snarkiness of my previous post on the matter, but I did not find Dell Island as difficult to navigate as you apparently did.

[Prokofy Neva]

You have a lot of incorrect notions of how the land market works.

Buying land in pieces around the mainland is *the* most expensive way to buy it. In the old days, pre June 2005, we had no choice. Entire, full sims of 65,536 didn't come up on the market very often. They were rare. Usually what came up were *parts* of sims. And first land was scattered all over every new sim. So if you owned half or a quarter of a sim and decided to stand and try to develop it, you'd have to pay premium dollar -- often to extortionists who would extract high prices -- in order simply to put some contiguous land together and more or less hold the view. Everyone knows that who tuned in before 2005, so anyone coming earlier than that got no special deals -- quite the contrary, they paid a hard price (except for those who got the free 4096s in the charter accounts in 2003).

In June 2005, the Lindens moved to an auction of full sims, and a practice not of spreading around first land but putting it on entire sims (that's when shortages began to develop with first land BTW). Then most people could wait for a sim to essentially "add to my shopping cart" for $1000. of course most very desirable new waterfront sims would go for more, but never over $1800-2000. Today, they go for $3500 or more because private island prices have gone up, and first land is no longer created in big batches, forcing new premium owners to buy land retail, not from Governor Linden.

I'm for making any bulk discounts or pricing breaks openly available to anyone who fits a standard set of criteria.

That's NOT what happens when a Dell or some other big company comes in claiming a "special" and "confidential" payment arrangement. It is NOT a deal open to all by fitting a grid of criteria.

I paid $1500 for Ravenglass at a time when it was a rare whole sim. A private island costs $1250 at the time (until Nov. 2006). Today, a private island costs $1695.

I reject the notion that there gets to be "separate rules" for corporate purchases. Why? And who gets to be a corporation? Why would dell, with 4 sims, get a special corporate purchase in SL merely because of its RL name, whereas I, with a purchase of 14, gets bupkus? This isn't just -- it's not even good business. It's the Lindens way of saying fuck you to small inworld business and shaking us loose from the grid in favour of very iffy and skittish big-business companies who so far, have not even one tenth of the commitment and skin in that we do who are exclusively inworld business. And their presence is masked by companies and developers like Hiro.

BTW, Hiro's smarmy little suck-up to Pixeleen is duly noted. Shows you why it's important for the Editrix to show these myrmadons whose boss, then they genuflect : )

There are no pictures on the drafting table. The island isn't laggy. There's just a row of text. I was there quite a long time so there was plenty of time for the world to load. There aren't "buttons," but that awful clunky blue drop-down text which is really a show-stopper. I wish somebody would invent something to utterly do away with that awful experience which is currently embedded into the whole LSL system. Again, I can see Hiro's buttons, the desk, everything just find. There are no pictures that slide forward on a screen as with a vendor. A holovendor would be a great solution here and certainly Hiro knows how to make those.

[Prokofy Neva]

and BTW, those at Dell who understand they need to have easy navigation and usability will skip right over the nasty comments of Chavo or the defensive posturing of Hiro and realize they will have to make some better signage and consider adding in more 3-d visibility and users' tools. That's all there is to it. The real people at Dell who have to really sell computers instead of selling themselves as fancy scripters in metaversal consulting companies will realize what's needed to make their island more usable for real sales, and make the needed changes.

Yes, and we shall rise against McDonald's for buying thier fries from another company.

We shall rise against Wal-Mart buying milk cheaper because of corporate connections abilities to buy cheaper and sell us a markup.

We shall rise against internet providers for buying hardware from corporate connections to keep the service running and passing costs along to us for the service and covering thier hardware.

We shall rise against KFC for buying thier chicken from companies for less than what they charge us because of deals arranged.

We shall rise against the telephone company for using thier corporate connections to buy hardware and software, and passing the fees along to the consumer.

We shall rise against the cable company for having corporate connections to buy the cables across the world and making us pay for cable!

We shall rise against the local contracting companies for using thier connections at lumberyards, and within the workers unions to build houses because I don't have those connections!

We shall rise against the local bakery for getting cheap dough mixtures thanks to thier connections to the local Amish community.

We shall rise against those vacation resorts for offering rich snobs the platinum package, when I've worked all my life and can only afford the gold package!

We shall rise against Dell for having corporate connections and getting into SL.

We shall rise against LL, for having corporate connections and turning a few bucks less on Dell than me!

Fuck... what am I gonna do without food, TV, vacations, internet, telephone and SL?!?!?

Nice way to pick and choose principles there Prok. Of course, no company should EVER charge less or more to ANYONE just because of what they can do for the company! O.o